Sanitaire clamping effect... or not

[Sanifan]

Hello!

I'm fairly new on this forum, but I've learned a lot perusing the site.

One thing that I learned was that Sanitaire direct air vacuums are regarded as good deep cleaners. They have good suction and a brushroll that vibrates the carpet to loosen imbedded grit (VGII). I'm a big fan of Sanitaire, owning the s670 metal-covered blue direct air upright and a few others.

Just yesterday I picked up another Sanitaire. This time it's a commercial grade red line sc688, with the grey plastic top.

Both have the ST style bag with Arm and Hammer Allergy Filtration printed on the front. The blue one has an outer bag with a stiffer, finer weave fabric, however. The red one has a looser, coarser weave for the outer bag fabric.

My question concerns that effect where the nozzle of the vacuum sucks and clamps down onto the carpet and actually pulls it up when the vacuum is tilted back. I've noticed that this happens with my redline SC688, but not with the blueline S670. Why?

My initial thought was that the blue one was broken somehow. I took it out and gave it a run right after using the red one for the first time. Yep, the blue vacuum just would not clamp down and suck onto the carpet the way the red one did. I went through all the height settings, and even at the lowest setting "1", there was no clamp action. The red clamped onto the carpet starting at "2." (Both vacuums have good brush contact at "2" btw. And I have low pile commercial grade carpet in my building.)

Anyone know why this is happening? Is the blue one really broken or not working correctly in some way?

I have noticed that the brushroll on the blue does vibrate the stuff on top of the carpet very well. It actually causes the bits to jump up and down on the carpet, and the power of the suction actually pulls some of the bits into the vacuum nozzle from 3/4" away.

So is there some error in the way the blue is working, and am I getting deep cleaning when the nozzle doesn't clamp right onto the carpet and stick to it?

I'm a bit flustered because I thought these vacuums were pretty much identical save for the plastic vs. metal top, and the long commercial 3 prong cord vs. the polarized 2 prong. But now I don't know.

If anyone knows anything about this, I sure would like to know!

Thanks,
Sanifan

P.S. - I wonder if this has anything to do with the weave of the bag. Perhaps the looser weave on the red outer bag offers increased airflow and more suction? Also, the red is using genuine Sanitaire Arm & Hammer ST bags that feel like woven fabric. The blue is using Envirocare bags that feel more like paper. Could increased airflow in the red vacuum be the answer to this?

 

[Sanifan]

And the blue one...

This is the s670 I have.

 

[twocvbloke]

The blue one sounds like it's working fine, when in good order, they won't "clamp" down, just lift the carpet or rug up and hold it to the nozzle just enough to clean it properly...

One thing you didn't mention though, is the red one is new or used? If it's used, it could probably do with a new belt and set of brush strips... :&#92

 

[Sanifan]

Used, but very lightly...

I did get the red one used, but it's hardly been used. The lady I bought it from said she had it for about a year, and that she vacuumed about twice a month. If that's correct, that's about 24 times in a medium sized apartment with medium pile carpet.

Apart from some very minor scuffs, the vacuum does look to be in very, very good shape. Brushes look like there's hardly any wear. Lol, she also had a 5 pack of TOL Eureka/Sanitaire Arm & Hammer odor reducing bags, the ones that look like cloth, that she threw in with the vacuum. I could see that there were 3 new bags left, and the one in the vacuum was 1/4 full. So it looks like she may have run a total of 1 and 1/4 bags through the vacuum since she had it.

Unfortunately, she did have dogs, so there is a bit of a dog smell. I expect that to go away after a time. Luckily, that knocked $10 off the price, so I got it at a very reasonable cost.

Funny thing is she sold it because she says her old Bissell bagless picked up more surface stuff than the Sanitaire, and thus had more suction. She basically said the Bissell picked up more clumpy stuff on the surface, and that's why she wanted to unload the Sanitaire. I think part of her thinking was due to the fact that some of the clumped up dog hair on the surface got pushed around instead of getting sucked up. That due to the Sanitaire was kissing the carpet so tightly. So the Bissell did a better job of getting those clumps off the carpet.

I will change out the belt the next time I use it, of course. But won't that only increase the sucking and pulling power of the vacuum, making it stick even more firmly to the carpet?

I actually prefer the tight suction that the red SC688 is giving. Somehow I feel that it is sealing tighter and sucking harder right under the nozzle, giving a good deep clean. My blue Sanitaire seems to be vibrating the dirt up very well and sucking it in with a powerful vacuum, but the fact that it doesn't seal makes me think the sucking power is not as great. Seems to me that the red is pulling out deep, imbedded dirt better, but I don't know enough about these thing to know whether that's the case or not.

Incidentally, the blue is a heck of a lot louder than the red. It's like the roar of a Mac truck going down the road. I read somewhere that Sanitaire may have changed motors somewhere down the line but, boy, is that blue S670 hella loud!

 

[kirbyloverdan]

Actually a vacuum cleaner needs

airflow in order to clean and deep clean . When it sticks to the carpet it can not clean properly. Many people think if they adjust the height to the lowest setting it will clean better that is false. Raise the height up a notch or two and always keep the belt changed they strech and don`t help with cleaning .

 

[broomvac]

VGII endcap settings

I believe on certain VGII brush rolls there are 2 different brush depth settings for the brush roll end caps, very similar to the way you can change the brush depth by rotating the end caps of a brush roll from a Kirby G series machine. If you pull the brush roll out you may notice this. Simply turn the caps 180 degrees and reinsall the brush, and see if that makes a difference.

I noticed these minute differences in the endcaps of the rollers when I was completely rebuilding my S661. (pictured below)

 

[broomvac]

Also

This is something I am sure you have already considered, but are the disposable bags in the machines BOTH new? If one is fuller than the other or more clogged, it will decrease airflow, reducing the "clamping effect"

Check the metal bottom plates, as not all are created equal. Some have vents and some do not. Also make sure it is properly installed, and check the seal around it as well.

 

[twocvbloke]

Speaking of belts, if the motor is a Pancake model (Blender models look like a tin can with a fan in the top), use Hoover Convertible/Senior belts, they last longer than the Eureka RD belts which seem to be slacker than they should be...

DON'T use them on Blender motor models though as they WILL ruin bearings, which wouldn't be good.... :S

Either way, Eureka and Sanitaire uprights are pretty damned good vacs, I never used to be a believer in them until I got my ZC-880 (European model sold as a Euro-Electrolux before they started Electroluxing the name in the states), brilliant vacuums, still love my Kirbys, but my Sanitaires get more use...

 

[Sanifan]

Thanks for the advice...

Good advice, guys. Thanks!

So is it generally agreed that it is NOT good to have the nozzle suck onto the carpet? Because of reduced airflow? If that's the case, I'll play with the brushroll to see if I can get some brush contact at setting "3." As it is, I get brush contact on "1" and "2", but both of those settings also suck onto the carpet.

I would have thought that the localized suction from a tight seal would deep clean better. But I can see your argument about how reduced airflow would hinder that. Being fairly new to the nuances of vacuums, I'm wondering if this is just common knowledge. Or are there two schools of thought on it? Seems like something a Myth Busters type experiment would be useful for, to see which one works better - maybe someone's done something like that? Or maybe it's just commonly accepted knowledge.

The point about the bags being full is a good one. On the red Sanitaire, I noticed the clamping effect with the quarter full bag that came with the vac, and then with a brand new empty one. On the blue Sanitaire, I noticed there was no clamping effect starting with a new bag all the way to a full one. Both bottom plates are in great shape. I did check the seals, both look to be fine. Both bottom plates seem to be of the same design - they both have side vents on either ends of the nozzle opening. These vents are designed into the stamped metal, and are about 1/2" wide, and 1/4" high. There's one on either end of the brushroll. Funny, just the existence of these vents would seem to suggest there should be no clamping action. If there are vents, would that not indicate that the plate is designed to NOT seal onto the carpet?

How to tell if the motor is a pancake or a blender? Can you tell by looking through the vents, or do I have to take the cover off? I took a peek through the side vents of the blue s670, and the motor looks like a big, strong, electric motor that's fairly tall, but it isn't housed inside a can. Instead, it's got something like a cylindrical black cage around it with straight vertical bars, spaced about a 1/2" apart from each other, going all the way around. The red sc688 has top vents on the cover. Took a quick peek through there but it's kinda hard to see what's going on. Good advice about the belts. I've been gathering a bunch of Eureka belts, but I'll be sure to grab some Hoovers if I discover I have a pancake motor.

Finally, why is the blue one so loud? There's the mid/highish pitched whine of the turbine, and then there's a deep, really loud growl. Again, reminds me of a Mac truck gunning its engine. On the blue, you can really hear the beaters working the carpet and the noise gets even louder when that happens. On the red, the noise is much less reduced. That growl doesn't seem to be there. Between the two, the red is much easier to bear. I'm actually loathe to use the blue in the hallways for fear of upsetting the neighbors. It's loud enough that earplugs are definitely needed for sustained vacuuming. I don't think there's anything damaged in the vacuum that's causing the noise. I just seems to be a characteristic of this particular model or sample. Any ideas?

Thanks!

 

[louvac]

The belt pulley made need to be replaced!

Check the belt pulley. For some reason, perhaps the very metal from which it is made, has a tendency to wear down rather quickly. When you check it, the center may be very thin as compared to your good model. When this happens, no matter how new the belt is, it will slip because there is less tension on it. Also, Eureka/Sanitaire makes a heavy duty "commercial" belt for these machines. It's really not all that different except the fact that it is designed to provide a little more life. I don't know the part order number but I do know as a fact there is a such beast!

Hope this helps. Please let us know!

 

[twocvbloke]

"maybe someone's done something like that?"

Yep, someone did, but a lot of rather miserable people didn't appreciate their hard work and thus their tests are now consigned to the history of the internet...

(I'm going to get told off by said person for saying that now!!!)

Anyway, your S670 has the Pancake motor, it will have more of a whine to it, that's just a trait of the Pancake motor, those motors in a home environment are bulletproof, they'll outlast the rest of the vac, and the blender motors, while not as powerful, are pretty decent motors in a home environment too, they just don't sound as nice...

Picture of a Pancake motor, if it ain't this, it's most likely a Blender motor:

 

[normvac]

Welcome to Vacuumland !

Your Blue Sanitaire should be everything you every wanted in a great upright vacuum. Especially if it is working properly.
The noise Factor, could be that you have a broken or chipped Impellar fan blade.
As that throws the motor out of balance and heightens the sound factor. As it is
causing stress on the bearings, top and bottom. So unscrew the two screws at the bottom of the zipper bag. So that when you remove it from the machine, you will be able to look inside. Then take the bottom plate off, as well as the belt. Look inside, from where the zipper bag attaches. Using you fingers to turn the impellar fan, while your looking to see if there is a chipped or broken blade.
If so, stop using the machine. Get it repaired or do it your self if your so inclined. I'm willing to bet, that is why your machine is so loud. Especially if you are cleaning carpet in Appartment or Building hallways. Where small stones and sharp or hard objects are picked up and pass on thru. As for the clamping theroy to the carpet. NOT good. Common sense would say "Get those brushes closer to the carpet, so they will sweep everything up" Wrong, Brushing is only 1/3 or 1/2 of the real cleaning process on carpet. It's all suction on bare floor/hard surface. Carpet also needs air flow to get the deep down dirt, then to carry the dirt away. Into the vacuum Bag.
Think about this, what happens on the end of the hose of a cannister vacuum. When you put the flat palm of your had over the end. The cannist motor gets loud. Plus there is no Air Flow. Now, start to pull your hand away. You hear the sound of rushing air and you feel it around you hand. Now make your hand wrap around the hose end. Like an attachment or extension wand. You feel all of the air that the motor is pulling toward the bag. Past the motor and returning into the room. That is Air Flow, which is an absolute need for clean carpet, floors anything. Plus it is necessary for the complete performance of the Vacuum cleaner.
Enough, one last thing. Do NOT use Hoover Convertable Belts on any of your Eureka Sanitaire uprights. They are way too tight and will, pull too hard on the bearings.

 

[normvac]

Welcome to Vacuumland !

Your Blue Sanitaire should be everything you every wanted in a great upright vacuum. Especially if it is working properly.
The noise Factor, could be that you have a broken or chipped Impellar fan blade.
As that throws the motor out of balance and heightens the sound factor. As it is
causing stress on the bearings, top and bottom. So unscrew the two screws at the bottom of the zipper bag. So that when you remove it from the machine, you will be able to look inside. Then take the bottom plate off, as well as the belt. Look inside, from where the zipper bag attaches. Using you fingers to turn the impellar fan, while you looking to see if there is a chipped or broken blade.
If so, stop using the machine. Get it repaired or do it your self if your so inclined. I'm will to bet, that is why your machine is so loud. Especially if you are cleaning carpet in Appartment or Building hallways. Where small stones and sharp or hard objects are picked up and pass on thru.
As for the clamping theory to the carpet. NOT good. Common sense would say "Get those brushes closer to the carpet, so they will sweep everything up" Wrong, Brushing is only 1/3 or 1/2 of the real cleaning process on carpet. It's all suction on bare floor/hard surface. Carpet also needs air flow to get the deep down dirt, then to carry the dirt away. Into the vacuum Bag.
Think about this, what happens on the end of the hose of a cannister vacuum. When you put your flat palm of your had over the end. The cannist motor gets loud. Plus there is no Air Flow. Now, start to pull your hand away. You hear the sound of rushing air and you feel it around you hand. Now make your hand wrap around the hose end. Like an attachment or extension wand. You feel all of the air that the motor is pulling toward the bag. Past the motor and returning into the room. That is Air Flow, which is an absolute need for clean carpet, floors anything. Plus it is necessary for the complete performance of the Vacuum cleaner.
Enough, one last thing. Do NOT use Hoover Convertable Belts on any of your Eureka Sanitaire uprights. They are way too tight and will, pull too hard on the bearings.

 

[twocvbloke]

"They are way too tight and will, pull too hard on the b

Only for Blender motors, the Pancake motors are too powerful for the "correct" belts, and said "correct" belts are too slack from new and thus burn out after 2 uses, whereas Hoover belts, being tighter, fit the bill and last a lot longer than the "correct" belts. My ZC-880 used about 3 belts for the first month I had it, when I changed to Hoover belts, that went to 3 Months on one belt, and it's still working (well, the motor's in the S663 at the moment, but still going it's job perfectly)...

Eurekas are tough vacs, they were built to last with little maintenance, just bags, belts and brush strips, in that order...

 

[broomvac]

MOTORS AND BELTS

Starting off, both of your vacuums DO have a higher amperage pancake type motor. They come stock with that kind. But, there are two different types of pancake motors, old and new, but both are very good and durable. The picture of the motor posted by twocvbloke is an older style with the open-top upper bearing. The newer ones are the same amperage and have a very similar construction. (picture below). The main difference is that on the new one the upper bearing is more covered or sealed to make it last longer, and that makes the motors sound a little different. That is like listening to the difference between an International and a Cummins diesel, they sound alike, but not identical. Chances are, whichever of your Sanitaires was made later has the later pancake motor, which I consider to be a good thing, seeing as how it has identical performance to the older one, the only difference will be that the upper bearing should last longer since it is sealed away from dust and from drying out as quickly.

As for this belt issue, I highly recommend AGAINST using smaller belts than stock, because I have seen armatures get ruined by an overly tight belt. I used to have the older style pancake motor in my S661 before I rebuilt it and put in a brand new pancake style motor, and the old motor was ruined by the previous owner when he used a Hoover belt. In use, as with any vacuum, the belt pulley will heat up quite hot, and makes the armature shaft bend easier. Pair that with a brand new, overly tight Hoover belt, and that armature shaft CAN BEND! And mine did! So now the shaft wobbled about a sixteenth of an inch back and fort, scraping the fan on the underside of the motor and the fan housing, and worst of all, rubbing the belt on the metal plate covering the bottom of the housing. This cracks and shreds (imagine rubbing a rubber band on the edge of a table) any belt (hoover belt or not) you put in this machine within DAYS, not months, like all belts should last. You can also tell if your machine is doing this if you spot a skid mark, kind of looking like a tiny version of those that plane wheels leave on runways, on the inside of the metal plate. Also, it was not the belt pulley itself that bent, but the actual threaded section of the armature, so replacing the pulley that screwed on to the end did NOT remedy this problem. The armature was MESSED UP!

Now, I am not suggesting any of your vacuums are currently doing this, I am just warning you that if you decide to use non-Sanaire or non-Eureka belts, this could very well happen to you.

And for those of you who do have Sanitaire issues where you cannot get your Sanitaire belts to last a bit more than a week, check for shaft wobble and the skid mark.

 

[Sanifan]

This is great advice, guys. I'm learning a lot about the Sanitaires here.

I'm going to put the blue aside until I can examine the fan for chips or damage. I understand that the vibration and uneven forces from an imbalanced fan can stress and wear the bearings and other parts in the vacuum.

FWIW, I described the motor in the blue incorrectly. I said that looking through vent slots on either side of the metal cover, I could see the inside of the motor, and that it was surrounded by a cylindrical cage that had vertical bars. That's wrong. There is no cylindrical cage. What I was looking into was the motor's exhaust ports. Referencing Broomvacs pic of the pancake motor above, the ports are the rectangular apertures on the left and right sides of the motor. The port on the right has a white plastic zip tie coming out of the rectangular opening, which then loops around towards the top and back down through the side of the port. These ports do have vertical bars further in. You can see the motor through these ports.

I'm very curious to see if my vacs have the earlier or later motors. I do believe both of the vacs are late model units. The red is a year old and the blue looks to have very current styling. Looks just like the ones I've seen sold new in vac shops (except the s670 has been discontinued according to the Sanitaire site). I'm just guessing there. My next project is to figure out how to take the cover off to check. I wanna get everything it tip top operating condition!

For now I'm going to stick with the Eureka/Sanitaire belts to see if those work fine.

Thanks!

 

[twocvbloke]

No skidmarks on my plates with original belts or Hoover belts, and the pulley/armature spins straight and true, but still burns off belts no matter what I do to prevent it!!!

All I see here is scaremongering, if an armature bends, spend $10 on a new one, they're sold as disposable items anyway so they're sold cheap, it doesn't necessarily mean they're poor quality, they're just made to be replaced when they wear out, especially as the upper bearings are difficult to remove without causing more damage than the part is actually worth... :&#92

The solution to the belts burning off is well-thought out and well-practised, older Eureka uprights, even with the same motors fitted, will only take the correct RD belt, but somewhere down the line, the motor was either shifted forwards or the nozzle shortened, and thus the belts they have been producing for years no longer fit properly on the Pancake motors, so, the solution is to reduce the size of the belts, which solves the problem. That's what this thing known as "engineering" is all about, coming up with solutions to problems that have cropped up, it may not be official, but it works better than original...

And that newer style pancake motor still has an exposed bearing, it just features more plastic which likes to break when under tension, unlike metal which can flex & bend for many years before metal fatigue sets in and it breaks, but, by that time the bearings will have worn out and the rest of the vac would probably no longer exist... :&#92

There is only one issue I can think of that could cause overheating of belt, pulley and brushroll, and that is Sleeve Bearings in the brushroll, I have one in my S663 and I can hear the difference between the Ball Bearing and Sleeve Bearing brushrolls, the Sleeve bearing has more resistance and thus causes the motor to slow down, but the Ball bearing ones spin faster and the belts don't heat up as much. Modern Sanitaires will have Ball Bearing brushrolls, so the issue of overheating is just negligible, but on older Sleeve bearing models it could be a problem, but again, as yet I have not had a problem...

 

[gsheen]

Fitting a smaller belt [COLOR=#ff0000; font-size: x-large]Will[/COLOR] shorten the life of the main bearing and the motor eventually.I love the fact that people will disregard what the Engineers who designed a machine tell them and do there own thing.


Those machines have been on the market forever, the basic design dated back to the 50's maybe earlier. any teething problems have been worked out many years ago. these are not new products that are sold by the millions into domestic homes to last a year but commercial machines that are only bought due to there quality and longevity, If every sanitaire out there belt broke after two uses they wouldn't be in just about every hotel , school and office building across the USA.


 


If your belts are snapping that fast then the machine is set to close to the carpet causing the belt to overheat and snap


 


when vacuum designers choose a belt there is alot of testing that goes into choosing the correct tention belt. If you fit a smaller one you will over tention and damage the motor. we see it every day on many different vacuums. the customer comes in and says I fitted a new belt and all of a sudden the motor is making a noise.


If you have ever seen the pully of a vacuum motor that has a blue ish color to it that is from fitting a belt that is to small.That is heat causing the color 


 


when I was working in R&D we would test different belt tensions and if the belt was to small the spindle would often glow red and eventually melt the belt.


 


I like broomvac and most other guys who work on vacuums as there daily job would suggest you use the origional belt and save your motor


 


Gareth


 


 

 

[twocvbloke]

The only pulley I have seen that was blue from overheating was the one on my LegendII that my brother "borrowed" & trashed, when it was finally returned, the brushroll was just made of hair and of course completely jammed up, the belt got stuck and hey presto, ruined pulley, which is why I never let people borrow my vacs, especially the brother...

My Sanitaire though, the pulley is the right colour, and as I've said already it's straight and true, but the genuine belts just burn off and stop working after a few uses, so, I use Hoover Senior belts, and a year later since I started using them, there's no problems... :&#92

If the bearing goes, which seems unlikely given my experience to date, then it's a maintenance repair, it's not like it's the end of the world and it can't ever be repaired ever again....

If my motors fall apart, I'll let you know, but I'm betting they won't...