Need Assistance in Diagnosing D80
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vaclab
Well-known member
So the question remains...
Which two wires do I short together to get the motor to run at low speed? I don't have a coil/switch diagram handy, so I'm unsure at this point...
Bill
Which two wires do I short together to get the motor to run at low speed? I don't have a coil/switch diagram handy, so I'm unsure at this point...
Bill
Hey
Here is pic of nos safety switch for a d80.
The right front side of switch is high speed.
Green is ground so doesn't mean anything.
So guessing yellow red is high white is neutral would be hooked up and black wire from coil and black and white from headlight need hooked up. So 2 white direct hook up to foot switch two black direct hook up to foot switch and ground green wires. Unhook other wires and cap off.
This should bypass safety switch run single speed.
I believe red is high speed power wire and yellow is neutral wire.
Les
Here is pic of nos safety switch for a d80.
The right front side of switch is high speed.
Green is ground so doesn't mean anything.
So guessing yellow red is high white is neutral would be hooked up and black wire from coil and black and white from headlight need hooked up. So 2 white direct hook up to foot switch two black direct hook up to foot switch and ground green wires. Unhook other wires and cap off.
This should bypass safety switch run single speed.
I believe red is high speed power wire and yellow is neutral wire.
Les
madman
Well-known member
I could make a diagram if I had a machine to reverse engineer.
If you want to be sure of your wiring, get an ohmmeter (or multimeter), and ohm the field coil. I don't know, but I'm assuming the motor assembly has... 5 wires. Did I guess right? 1 common, 2 speeds, 2 wires for the light bulb. Well, here's what you do. Take the armature out of the field. Connect one ohmmeter test lead to one of the brush holders (or wherever the brush gets its power [some brushes have a spring that touch a contact, or a braided wire that's attached to the brush]) then connect the other test lead to each of the wires coming from the field coil. tbh, I'm not entirely sure how much resistance you're looking for, but I'd bet any reading at all would infer a connection. Just be sure to test ALL the wires, to be sure you've got the right wire. Write down your findings and repeat with the other brush holder. I'm thinking - but I'm not 100% sure - that you will find two wires that have no connectivity to either brush holder. That'll be that stupid light bulb winding, ignore those wires.
Now, you want 1 wire from each half of the field coil winding. It may be tricky to visually pick those. From the wires you ohmed, you'll want 1 wire that has connection to only the 1st brush holder and not the 2nd, and a another wire that has only connection to the 2nd brush holder and not the 1st. With the motor assembled, connect those two wires to 120vac and the motor *should* run at some speed.
Alternatively, if you want to skip the above, and/or if you're (rightfully) worried about damaging the motor by hooking up the wires wrong, you could hook it up in series with a light bulb. An actual old fashioned incandescent light bulb. Ideally a 100 watt. It's a little difficult because technically you'd want a bulb of the same wattage as the load you're putting through it, but I don't think you're gonna find a 2000 watt bulb. Anyhow, if the bulb lights up near full strength, you're probably attached to that stupid extra winding in the field coil. I'd say it might not light at all, or very little, if you're attached to the motor properly (or rather on of the two speeds). I hope I'm thinking this through properly. But at least with the light bulb, if nothing else, it will act as a fuse and protect the motor. Though I think it's unlikely to blow the bulb, the bulb lighting fully will indicate a short. Or near short. I suppose it might light the bulb with any connection (because it's not high enough wattage [electricity is hard to think about, so I'm not sure]), which then you wouldn't have learned anything, but you wouldn't have fried the motor, either. Safest bet, anyhow.
I hope I'm helping.
If you want to be sure of your wiring, get an ohmmeter (or multimeter), and ohm the field coil. I don't know, but I'm assuming the motor assembly has... 5 wires. Did I guess right? 1 common, 2 speeds, 2 wires for the light bulb. Well, here's what you do. Take the armature out of the field. Connect one ohmmeter test lead to one of the brush holders (or wherever the brush gets its power [some brushes have a spring that touch a contact, or a braided wire that's attached to the brush]) then connect the other test lead to each of the wires coming from the field coil. tbh, I'm not entirely sure how much resistance you're looking for, but I'd bet any reading at all would infer a connection. Just be sure to test ALL the wires, to be sure you've got the right wire. Write down your findings and repeat with the other brush holder. I'm thinking - but I'm not 100% sure - that you will find two wires that have no connectivity to either brush holder. That'll be that stupid light bulb winding, ignore those wires.
Now, you want 1 wire from each half of the field coil winding. It may be tricky to visually pick those. From the wires you ohmed, you'll want 1 wire that has connection to only the 1st brush holder and not the 2nd, and a another wire that has only connection to the 2nd brush holder and not the 1st. With the motor assembled, connect those two wires to 120vac and the motor *should* run at some speed.
Alternatively, if you want to skip the above, and/or if you're (rightfully) worried about damaging the motor by hooking up the wires wrong, you could hook it up in series with a light bulb. An actual old fashioned incandescent light bulb. Ideally a 100 watt. It's a little difficult because technically you'd want a bulb of the same wattage as the load you're putting through it, but I don't think you're gonna find a 2000 watt bulb. Anyhow, if the bulb lights up near full strength, you're probably attached to that stupid extra winding in the field coil. I'd say it might not light at all, or very little, if you're attached to the motor properly (or rather on of the two speeds). I hope I'm thinking this through properly. But at least with the light bulb, if nothing else, it will act as a fuse and protect the motor. Though I think it's unlikely to blow the bulb, the bulb lighting fully will indicate a short. Or near short. I suppose it might light the bulb with any connection (because it's not high enough wattage [electricity is hard to think about, so I'm not sure]), which then you wouldn't have learned anything, but you wouldn't have fried the motor, either. Safest bet, anyhow.
I hope I'm helping.
vaclab
Well-known member
Some Continuity Testing Later...
And here's what I found so far. I've checked this with two D80 switches (of course both could be bad I suppose).
High Speed = Green and Yellow wires shorted PLUS White and Red wires shorted
Low Speed = Red and Yellow wires shorted
ALL switch connections/configurations measured 0.0 Ohms.
Coil Winding #1 = Yellow and White wires. Meter read about 1.5 Ohms
Coil Winding #2 = Green and Red wires. Meter read about 1.5 Ohms
Brushes are clean and springy in their holders with good connectivity to the commutator.
I'll do more tests as I find time. Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
Bill
And here's what I found so far. I've checked this with two D80 switches (of course both could be bad I suppose).
High Speed = Green and Yellow wires shorted PLUS White and Red wires shorted
Low Speed = Red and Yellow wires shorted
ALL switch connections/configurations measured 0.0 Ohms.
Coil Winding #1 = Yellow and White wires. Meter read about 1.5 Ohms
Coil Winding #2 = Green and Red wires. Meter read about 1.5 Ohms
Brushes are clean and springy in their holders with good connectivity to the commutator.
I'll do more tests as I find time. Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
Bill
madman
Well-known member
So assuming you're right and your switches are not broken...
Hey
Maybe because we like the vaclabs fellow and trying to help him out.
Unhook the speed switch.
Cap high speed wires.
You will have 4 wires hooked up to foot switch. Black and White from headlight. I'm red and yellow for low speed. The power wires I think have a b below the 4 connectors. Hook up black and red to 2 terminals on that side. Yellow and white(headlight on 2 of the 4 w terminals. Carbon brush cap wires are green and black. The green has a ground terminal on switch. The black has a spot too. The 4 terminals are in the side and there is a slot/ terminal on same side as other power wires. This is where the carbon brush wire goes.
You can do tests until blue in the face switches don't go out often. Push foot switch on and it should start up. If it doesn't it could be switch highly doubt it though. Your field coil is gone.
Hopefully this solves it.
Les
Maybe because we like the vaclabs fellow and trying to help him out.
Unhook the speed switch.
Cap high speed wires.
You will have 4 wires hooked up to foot switch. Black and White from headlight. I'm red and yellow for low speed. The power wires I think have a b below the 4 connectors. Hook up black and red to 2 terminals on that side. Yellow and white(headlight on 2 of the 4 w terminals. Carbon brush cap wires are green and black. The green has a ground terminal on switch. The black has a spot too. The 4 terminals are in the side and there is a slot/ terminal on same side as other power wires. This is where the carbon brush wire goes.
You can do tests until blue in the face switches don't go out often. Push foot switch on and it should start up. If it doesn't it could be switch highly doubt it though. Your field coil is gone.
Hopefully this solves it.
Les
texaskirbyguy
Well-known member
Not sure if this may give any clues, but here goes...
I restored my Mom's original D50 last year and its speed switch had been completely bypassed for decades and it ran in LOW only. Below are some pictures of how it was wired...
Red and yellow were permanently wire-nutted together. White (wire-nutted to tan) ran to top 'W' of power switch. Green went to top 'G' of the the power switch.
Of course it would run without an attachment on the front, but I am sure there is a way to at least use that part of the safety switch...
Hope this helps.
BTW, when trying the machine out after rewiring, watch the commutator and shut it off immediately if it sparks like a mad demon (which means a miswire that is pulling excess current.
I restored my Mom's original D50 last year and its speed switch had been completely bypassed for decades and it ran in LOW only. Below are some pictures of how it was wired...
Red and yellow were permanently wire-nutted together. White (wire-nutted to tan) ran to top 'W' of power switch. Green went to top 'G' of the the power switch.
Of course it would run without an attachment on the front, but I am sure there is a way to at least use that part of the safety switch...
Hope this helps.
BTW, when trying the machine out after rewiring, watch the commutator and shut it off immediately if it sparks like a mad demon (which means a miswire that is pulling excess current.
madman
Well-known member
I was going to make a motor diagram just based on guessing, but then I looked at the Heritage II wiring diagram, and it's insane. They could have just used a normal two speed motor, and a normal 120v light bulb, but NO~OOO. So instead of guessing on something that complex, I just prettied up the switch diagram.
Link below has Ben's Heritage II wiring diagram, which I honestly doubt is all that different, so it'll probably be helpful, but obviously take it with a grain of salt. Let me just mention that I find it ridiculous that the Kirby people making the service manual were thoughtful enough to show you EXACTLY how the windings in the motor are wired in relation to everything else - very helpful, but had no such inclination to show you how the switches work.
https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?17773
Link below has Ben's Heritage II wiring diagram, which I honestly doubt is all that different, so it'll probably be helpful, but obviously take it with a grain of salt. Let me just mention that I find it ridiculous that the Kirby people making the service manual were thoughtful enough to show you EXACTLY how the windings in the motor are wired in relation to everything else - very helpful, but had no such inclination to show you how the switches work.
https://www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?17773
vaclab
Well-known member
As Time Permits
I'll perform more testing. BUT, I have a hard time believing that coil functionality goes "poof!" simply by carefully removing an armature. There could be micro-cracks in the various lead wires and/or where they connect into the switches though. Since both coils appear to measure the same 1.5 Ohms, I'm leaning towards the coils are OK at this time, but who knows?
Remember, I went from a fully functional two speed operation to absolutely nothing...except the light bulb.
I need to finish rebuilding the rear bearing (just got the puller a few days ago) before I can fiddle any further.
Bill
I'll perform more testing. BUT, I have a hard time believing that coil functionality goes "poof!" simply by carefully removing an armature. There could be micro-cracks in the various lead wires and/or where they connect into the switches though. Since both coils appear to measure the same 1.5 Ohms, I'm leaning towards the coils are OK at this time, but who knows?
Remember, I went from a fully functional two speed operation to absolutely nothing...except the light bulb.
I need to finish rebuilding the rear bearing (just got the puller a few days ago) before I can fiddle any further.
Bill
texaskirbyguy
Well-known member
Make sure the wires for the brushes are secure in the power switch, too. My picture above shows where they go. I had to add a layer of solder on mine to make them more secure.
vacuumdevil
Well-known member
@texaskirbyguy Good stuff I've been waiting and watching for somebody to suggest this.
My next solution would be take it to a local vacuum shop and have them diagnose it real quick for him. Sometimes just having that second set of eyes makes all the difference.
Good luck New balance Man
.
My next solution would be take it to a local vacuum shop and have them diagnose it real quick for him. Sometimes just having that second set of eyes makes all the difference.
Good luck New balance Man
.I want to help, not because I like him . Because I Just feel sorry for the guy, he not very mechanically inclined unlike most of us here. @lesinutah It's like the South Park kids helping Al Gore.
rivstg1
Well-known member
royalfan
that was just rude.....and unneeded. He knows more than many on here....l possibly ess than others on here....kinda like many of us. We welcome all to this site don't we? Especially ones you sd to the group with interesting testing of vacs.
that was just rude.....and unneeded. He knows more than many on here....l possibly ess than others on here....kinda like many of us. We welcome all to this site don't we? Especially ones you sd to the group with interesting testing of vacs.
vacman1961
Well-known member
Vaclab, if you want to send me the motor unit for your Kirby I will repair it for you no charge, I am in New York and have been a Kirby Area Distributor for 30 years. Message me if you want my name and address.
Hey
Every one is entitled to their opinion. I know alot about Kirby's,royals,riccars, Hoovers. He tested a multitude of vacuums. I think your viewing impairment isn't obvious. I guess we are all impaired somehow. He has helped and answered questions about airflow tests. He has helped a professional vacuum reviewer with vacuum info. He is not mechanically inclined. But it's okay he asked for help we helped him. This is spread your knowledge and help each other. That is all.
Les
Every one is entitled to their opinion. I know alot about Kirby's,royals,riccars, Hoovers. He tested a multitude of vacuums. I think your viewing impairment isn't obvious. I guess we are all impaired somehow. He has helped and answered questions about airflow tests. He has helped a professional vacuum reviewer with vacuum info. He is not mechanically inclined. But it's okay he asked for help we helped him. This is spread your knowledge and help each other. That is all.
Les
ultralux88
Well-known member
I think you’re wiring the power switch wrong. I see green wire in the black wire spot and vice versa... Here is a picture based on the labeling of the switch.
Hey
The headlight follows the colors. Power wires are yo go in black slot even if it's not black. B is + connection white is neutral- ground is making sure wires and electricity follows flow. The neutral wires I use a wire nuts and a pig tail. Wire one wire. Ground the same and power too. It turns headlight and motor on once you push the switch bypassing safety switch.
That way you can see 3 wires basically makes process of elimination easier.
Les
The headlight follows the colors. Power wires are yo go in black slot even if it's not black. B is + connection white is neutral- ground is making sure wires and electricity follows flow. The neutral wires I use a wire nuts and a pig tail. Wire one wire. Ground the same and power too. It turns headlight and motor on once you push the switch bypassing safety switch.
That way you can see 3 wires basically makes process of elimination easier.
Les
vaclab
Well-known member
For everyone that has made a positive contribution
I thank you and will follow up when I next get the chance. Remember, I do have a full time programming job and a family so my time to complete this machine isn't infinite.
And for the naysayers and haters (you know who you are), let me give you a little biography of some of the things I've done in my nearly 54 years on this earth.
- Had a soldering iron and screwdriver in my hand at 5 years old (did a lousy job).
- Built my first electric motor around 1977, hand winding the coils, etc.
- Compiled my first computer video game on a Unix mainframe in the fall of 1979.
- Passed several FCC exams starting in 1979 that essentially mean I can build/repair transmitters and antennas.
- Started doing my own automotive maintenance in 1984. Mostly stopped by 2014. Replaced suspensions, did AC, some electrical, wheels, tires, brakes, tune-ups, valve lash adjustments, etc. Have re-programmed my BMW's firmware (in German) to add/subtract/adjust various features. Bimmerfest.com is a great resource for more info.
- Dry-walled my garage in 2006, repaired my gas hot water heater and glass top electric stove, not to mention keeping my 1990 Maytags running for 27 years.
- As side job in college, I repaired oscilloscopes and that in turn morphed into TV/VCR repair of new and vintage audio visual equipment from about 1983-1997.
- Just for fun, over 25 years ago, I started designing and building my own audio amps, mics, testing equipment and high end power supplies. Some of this can be seen in my videos.
I could go on about surface mount component repair (I need a magnifying glass for this), but you've probably stopped reading this drivel by now...
So gee whiz, I guess I'm just not mechanically inclined enough to handle a 50 year old vacuum cleaner.
Bill
I thank you and will follow up when I next get the chance. Remember, I do have a full time programming job and a family so my time to complete this machine isn't infinite.
And for the naysayers and haters (you know who you are), let me give you a little biography of some of the things I've done in my nearly 54 years on this earth.
- Had a soldering iron and screwdriver in my hand at 5 years old (did a lousy job).
- Built my first electric motor around 1977, hand winding the coils, etc.
- Compiled my first computer video game on a Unix mainframe in the fall of 1979.
- Passed several FCC exams starting in 1979 that essentially mean I can build/repair transmitters and antennas.
- Started doing my own automotive maintenance in 1984. Mostly stopped by 2014. Replaced suspensions, did AC, some electrical, wheels, tires, brakes, tune-ups, valve lash adjustments, etc. Have re-programmed my BMW's firmware (in German) to add/subtract/adjust various features. Bimmerfest.com is a great resource for more info.
- Dry-walled my garage in 2006, repaired my gas hot water heater and glass top electric stove, not to mention keeping my 1990 Maytags running for 27 years.
- As side job in college, I repaired oscilloscopes and that in turn morphed into TV/VCR repair of new and vintage audio visual equipment from about 1983-1997.
- Just for fun, over 25 years ago, I started designing and building my own audio amps, mics, testing equipment and high end power supplies. Some of this can be seen in my videos.
I could go on about surface mount component repair (I need a magnifying glass for this), but you've probably stopped reading this drivel by now...
So gee whiz, I guess I'm just not mechanically inclined enough to handle a 50 year old vacuum cleaner.
Bill
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