My 50-year-old HVAC system gives up the ghost

[human]

So this week when I cleaned the filter on my furnace, which is also the air handler for the air conditioner, I noticed an excessive amount of condensation dripping down and subsequently noticed the engineered wood floor starting to curl up in the hallway. As is usually the case in hot weather, it took about three days to get a service technician out to the house and what he found was pretty depressing.

The condensation problem has been happening for a long time and the gas furnace is rusted out to the point that it would be dangerous to operate this winter so I was faced with three choices: patch it up with no guarantee of how long it would last, replace just the furnace with a five-year warranty or spend a bit more and replace the whole system for about $7,000 and get a ten-year warranty. Considering the lack of longevity for modern HVAC systems, I chose the latter option. They'll be back Monday to install it.

On the one hand, I can't be too disappointed because this Singer system is original to the house, which was built in 1970. Fifty years is a good, long run for any system and I have no illusions that the new system will last anywhere near that long and in that respect, I just hate the idea of getting on the replacement merry-go-round every 10-12 years. But hey, that's reality in the twenty-first century. Nothing's built to last. Of course, I've still got to do something about the floor in the hallway. After the expense of the HVAC system, I'm tempted to cheap out and put carpet down over it.

 

[fan-of-fans]

Now that is a good service life! Any chance we could see pics of this old system before it's gone? Guessing it's a green color. I used to see some of these older systems still around on houses built in the 1950s and 60s but most are gone now.

 

[human]

Ask and you shall receive. The sheet metal on the furnace is a greenish gray or grayish green, depending on how you want to look at it. They sure don't make 'em like this anymore. I'll be sad to see it go. The stainless steel mixing bowl is not standard equiment but it's exactly the right size and shape to catch the drips coming out of the flue.

 

[human]

Just for the heck of it, I popped the 'American Furnace Company' badge off the front panel to save as a souvenir. Maybe I'll stick it on the new furnace as a good luck charm.

 

[kirby519]

What is really alarming is the fact that the engineered wood floors are curling up.

For the cost of them which is less than solid hard wood flooring. I would be upset over that.

That could end up to be an unexpected expenditure to replace those floors. I understand as the humidity drops the floors should return to their normal flat surface. But until then WOW that could lead to damaged edges. Wood doors swell up around here when the humidity is high stained or painted. Painted doors stick even worse.

 

[fan-of-fans]

Those old units really lasted. My parents house still had the original Fedders electric heat/AC system from 1976 when they moved in. It was weird because it had two compressors inside the unit, instead of one. I think one of the compressors went bad, so they had the repairman set it up to use one and then they ended up replacing it a few years later. They're on their second replacement system now.

One tip I'd suggest, is after the compressor unit is installed outside, give the cabinet a good coat of automotive wax. That'll keep it looking new and prevent rusting and paint fading from the sun.

 

[human]

Yes, I am quite irritated over the damage to the flooring. What tipped me off was I found a wet piece of paper on the floor in the hallway where there shouldn't have been any water. It is actually seeping up between the seams in spots. The house is on a concrete slab so there's nowhere for the water to go. Once the new system is in and I know no new water is coming down, I'm going to go over the the floor with my wet/dry vac to see how much water I can suck out of there. I'm not going to do anything about replacing the floor right away. I'm just going to let it dry out for at least a month or two and see what happens. Meanwhile, I'll be pricing flooring and carpet and coming up with affordable solution while I wait for my bank account to recover from the cost of the HVAC system.

 

[kirby519]

Oh man concrete is like a giant sponge.

Hopefully with the new unit and the air being dried out by the A/C. The floors will return to as close to normal as possible with minimal damage.

50 years for a heating system is excellent sad part is you are the one that had to bite the bullet and shell out for new units. One of the joys of home ownership instant poverty.

 

[kirby519]

If you haven't already done it. Put some large fans blowing across the floor to aid drying.

Even if you have to rent some commercial squirrel cage blowers or the newer down draft fans we use in commercial cleaning/restoration to aid drying of floor finish and carpets and or a dehumidifier if you have one.

 

[human]

Good idea on the fans. I've got a big, commercial grade fan that I'll set up in the hallway once the new system is in. I, too am hoping the floor will relax back into place as it dries.

 

[kirby519]

There is Luxury vinyl tile available too in an array of colors and patterns.

Commonly referred to as LVT.

If you Google LVT flooring you will come up with sites that offer LVT. Some if not all have a textured surface for slip resistance when the floor is wet.

No slipping or sliding around on the flooring like you do on some ceramic tile floors or the traditional rolled vinyl floors are when wet. I have rolled vinyl flooring in my bathroom, boy can that be a recipe for disaster.

 

[madman]

'Engineered hardwood' is marketing-speak for 'particle board with a wood veneer glued to it.' Particle board does not like water, as anybody who's had Kmart furniture in a basement will tell you. I'd never put that crap in my house.

New systems aren't really all that bad. My Goodman furnace lasted a good 8 years, needing only a new inducer fan once, but we moved after that, so probably longer. Kept the A/C condenser unit, that's gotta be going on 12 years now. It's been acting up lately, but that's just because it probably leaked a bit of charge, that and that it's coupled to an ancient evaporator core that's completely wrong for it.

The furnace in my current house is from the 80s, maybe late 90s. My dad keeps saying we should buy a new one just in case - maybe he's right - but all the problems it's had have been stupid little things that any furnace will need in its operating life. Especially considering it's been operating for 30-40 years!

Incidentally, it kindof needed an inducer motor, but I found it had ball bearings, so I just replaced them. It did NOT need a fan motor, but my dad went and bought one anyway, so that's new. It needed a control board, but I just resoldered some broken joints, and it's fine (and I literally had it fixed within one hour of discovering it stopped working lol). And it always used to make this shrill metallic rattle whenever the fan was running. This current summer, with the A/C problems we've had, I had it in pieces and I found out the heat exchanger pipes were wiggling around in their holders. I filled the holders with high temp RTV silicone, it's completely silent now.

Point being, any furnace requires maintenance, old or new.

 

[kirby519]

It's true could be repaired if all parts needed are available. However that can be an unending repair job. In the end costing even more between repairs to keep the system working and finally in the end complete replacement.

At this point maybe best all the way around to replace the system with a new one. Reliable for years and more cost efficient to use.

 

[human]

I'm sure the flooring isn't of the best quality. It was in place when I bought the house, doubtless put down to help sell it. It's kind of like that the used car salesmen say--Bondo and paint makes it look like what it ain't.

Yes, the expense is irritating and the ten-year warranty means the it's designed to last for eleven so I get to pay full freight again on the next one too. Meanwhile, maybe I can recoup some of the cost through reduced utility bills but I'm not counting those chickens yet. I was promised the same thing by the guy who sold me my vinyl replacement windows but that definitely didn't materialize.

 

[kirby519]

@human

Yes it is sad that products that once lasted decades now have a much shorter life span.

The new furnace may give you a longer lifespan than maybe expected. If repairs need to be made any time around year 9 to 10 under warranty you could expect another 9 to 10 years trouble free. Granted no guarantees on that.

I had a Ford Explorer that needed the radiator replaced. The original lasted over 200,000 miles. The next radiator lasted a year and that one failed with in a year. How frustrating is that. Fortunately the replacement failed just before the warranty ran out. Makes you wonder if it isn't worth replacing the radiator with a new vehicle to go along with it.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

"Ford radiator" now what you need there Is a reputable radiator shop! We have had one in the Chicagoland area for many years, Rex radiator. They have probably done 200 radiators for us through the years. They recored the radiator on my International scout most recently...at a fraction of the cost of a replacement that may only last 5 years.

It's a shame the Singer system finally.let go. I saw a house in my adventures househunting that had a full singer system still operating, although the air conditioning unit outside the house sounded awful

 

[kirby519]

The shop was recommended by someone I have done business with for years. Thankfully that problem child is no longer my problem.

 

[human]

The Singer is still running, at least for tonight. The top of the furnace is just so rusted out that it would be unsafe to operate this winter and I don't want to monoxide myself or my cats. When I bought the house in 2014, it still even had the original Singer thermostat. That broke almost immediately and I replaced it with a programmable Honeywell unit. I do not plan to let them scrap that, especially if the new system, comes with a lesser thermostat.

I had a funny experience with a radiator rebuild when I was in college back in the '80s. I took my car to the Kmart Auto Center that was next door to campus and they sent the radiator out to a shop in town. When I picked the car up, the receipt from the radiator shop was attached to the Kmart Auto Center invoice and showed the discount they had given Kmart. Not only did Kmart not mark up the cost of the repair, the discount from the radiator shop was greater than the labor Kmart charged to remove and install the radiator. The repair was good. I kept the car three more years and had no further problem with it.

 

[madman]

I doubt they will replace your thermostat, that's rarely part of the deal.

@kirby519 - owning a home is always an unending repair job.

 

[gottahaveahoove]

I had oil steam

the furnace was 50 yrs old, as were the oil tanks.
I was told they all were on borrowed time. I didn't want to replace oil tanks and have a 50+ yr old furnace, etc.
So, I went to gas and a water heater. It PAID for itself in about 3 yrs.
Thankfully, all is fine.
Good luck with your new system.

 

[kirby519]

@madman

Oh I know. I grew up in a single family home and helped clear off land and maintain my Grandparents property. No stranger to what lies ahead.

My dad and grandfather taught me quite a bit about up keep and repairs. Glad I took the time to learn.

@human. I could have been happy with 3 yrs. could have saved some money to apply to the next vehicle.

 

[human]

They're on the way...

I just got a call from the HVAC guys and they're en route. I'm almost surprised in a way that they didn't show up at some ungodly early hour. I checked the weather earlier and it looks like it's only going to top out in the upper 70s, maybe 80 today so it'll be an okay day to go without A/C. Of course, the flip side of the coin is it's going to be rainy and I'm sure they'll need me to move my less-than-weather tight convertible out from under the carport so they can access the back yard. Guess I'll be parking it on the street and pulling the cover over it. No big deal. Now, corralling the cats and locking them in my bedroom all day, that's going to be a bigger deal—at least for them.

 

[human]

Out with the old...

The old Singer system has breathed its last and is out the door. The new one is now being installed. It's a Rheem system and I was disappointed to see the Energy Guide sticker on the carton for the furnace showed it to be rated "least efficient". Oh well, they've kind of got me over a barrel at this point. Hopefully the air conditioner will make up the difference. That was the real energy hog on the old system.

 

[kirbyklekter]

Human,

Looking forward to hearing any news on the new furnace/ac unit. Did you pry off the old Singer badge from the front?

My old Coleman "Presidential" heater/ac was built in 1974 and thankfully still gets it done. My grandfather (40 yrs. hvac) would tinker with it now and then but so far it's never needed parts. Even the pilots therm o-coupler is original. My 24 yr. old water heater went through 4 couplers, but that's all so with 24 yrs. service I'm not complaining!

Are they replacing the ducting too or just cleaning out the old. Is your ducting insulated or wrapped in anything? We do here on the coast and I know it gets colder where you live! Billy

 

[human]

The system is in. I was mistaken earlier. The system is a Ruud, manufactured by Rheem. So far, it's a lot quieter than the old Singer. All I hear is the rushing of air through the vents, not the mechanicals in the closet. Hopefully, it will be more energy efficient. They re-used the original ductwork but everything else is brand new, except the thermostat, which I had replaced a few years ago. Quite coincidentally, I got an email from the power company today, offering a $300 rebate on a new HVAC system, so that was a welcome development. And yes, I did save the American Furnace Company badge off of the furnace but the Singer badge was long gone from the air conditioner before I ever bought the house.

 

[lesinutah]

Multiple

In Utah or any house with a basement has for inch concrete.
If anyone is saying engineered wood is cheap fiberboard. They get the wood overlapping directions. They do this by using polarities of ions. I have engineered hardwood in my basement with a 60 year warranty. It was the longest warranty available.
I joists are engineered wood. They hold the weight of the whole house. I hope this helps with the misconception of engineered flooring.
Les

 

[kirby519]

@ Lesinutah

True Laminated wood products are structurally stronger and more stable than solid wood products.

The down side to Engineered wood floors is they can only successfully be lightly sanded and refinished one time. Sounds like there has been quite a bit of water soaking into the boards making up the flooring before it was discovered to cause the cupping of the boards.

Hopefully with drying out the floor the boards will settle back into place. Only time will tell with that.

 

[madman]

LVL beams are very strong, but just like the floor boards, don't get them wet. Most engineered hardwood really is just MDF particle board. I'm sure there are some nicer ones that are more like plywood. And they probably use some kind of alchemy on others to make them more water-resistant. Even so, they'll only handle a certain amount of moisture, just like plywood roof decking or the LVL beams or engineered trusses holding up your house - those are actually rated on how much water exposure they can handle. Because there's no roof when a house is still being built.

 

[fan-of-fans]

Here's some info I found on history of American Furnace Co:

PARENT COMPANY: AMERICAN FURNACE COMPANY
1968 – AMERICAN FURNACE COMPANY BECAME PART OF CLIMATE CONTROL A DIVISION WITHIN SINGER CO.
1970 – BRAND NAME AMERICAN FURNACE DROPPED AND RENAMED TO SINGER AMERICAN FURNACE.
1982 – SINGER AMERICAN FURNACE RENAMED TO CLIMATE CONTROL.
SISTER OR SIMILAR BRANDS INCLUDE: NONE

SINGER: In 1982 became climate control unit of SnyderGeneral Corp. with name dropped. In 1984 SnyderGeneral operations included Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, McQuay. In 1988 SynderGeneral bought American Air Filter. In 1991, sold Arcoaire & Comfortmaker to Inter-City Products.

https://www.building-center.org/american-furnace-hvac-age/
http://www.johnmills.net/work/history.html