Kirby 515 Commutator Wear

[ian1035nr]

Howdy, everyone

I pulled apart my Kirby 515, and discovered the commutator has a wicked groove worn into it.

I have a spare out of a 510 that's in perfect shape, so I'll be installing it.

My question is: is there anything that I can do to prevent this kind of wear in the future, or is this just what happens when a vacuum has had a very long life?

 

[madman]

Long life, maybe. Hard life, definitely. Either that, or a bearing is binding, or some other such thing that would put undue strain on the motor. I would check everything thoroughly to be sure nothing is binding.

 

[ian1035nr]

The motor seemed to be spinning freely. But I have new front and rear bearings coming for it, along with new brushes. That's actually what led to me taking it apart in the first place; I wanted to clean out any dust or gunk before popping in all new components.

Do you know if using the 510's 3 amp armature will reduce the engine power, or is the power determined by the field magnet?

 

[kirbyclassiciii]

Ian1035nr

Ian,

I am pretty sure it would. The latest available armature and field set for this machine had part numbers 114960 and 103960, respectively, so you may want to look for those.

~Ben

 

[madman]

If the replacement armature is from a machine with a different power rating, it will definitely behave differently. Which may not be a good thing. Typical universal (AC/DC) motors are wired in series. Meaning the resistance of the field coils PLUS the resistance of a single armature coil roughly equals the resistance of the whole motor (not counting any weird extra crap, and how that number changes when the motor is running).

If, for example, you replace the armature with a smaller one (lower resistance/higher amp rating), the total resistance of the motor will be lowered, INCREASING the amount of amps it draws, potentially the point of overheating the motor or burning up the brushes.

If you do the opposite, replacing it with a larger one (higher resistance/lower amp rating), it'll have the opposite effect, reducing the 'engine power.'

Of course I'm no expert in Kirby's, so you'll want someone else to tell you if the difference between your two armatures is significant enough to warrant concern.

 

[texaskirbyguy]

LONG use!

I do not see excessive burning so looks like normal wear after long hours.
Make sure only Kirby brushes are installed as aftermarkets (do they exist?) may have stiffer springs.
However, compare how deep the groove is to the total bar thickness (with a caliper). It is possible there are many years of life left in that motor.
My mom's D50 had a groove like that when I restored it last year, but I remember how much it was used. I have a new armature but I will let hers wear a bit more before I install it. She does not use it as much as when my sister and I were young.
My Tradition and 505 had notable wear but certainly not deep enough to worry about.

 

[lesinutah]

Attention

If you cherish your vacuum at all listen up. Get the diagram and make sure armature and field coil are compatible. Also make sure your carbon brush holders brass casing doesn't move.
If you don't you will enjoy what I did a few months ago.2 d80s bad carbon brush holders. I fixed it. The next time I tried it caught field coil burned blue and fried rebuild vacuum to Ash. I was not affected I plugged my second one in and guess what this burned greenish blue. You will go happy and anxious to wt freak.
I'm building 2 new d80s correct armatures and fields. I found out bearing plate on older models took certain bearings. Newer bearing plates different bearings. If I had not noticed armature blades would have sliced my wiring and burn blue.
So get pics and research every part.

Armatures with k meter are easy to test. My burnt ones were bad. New ones perfect . I should have been done long ago but I'm waiting for carbon brush ground wires. I'm capping off dual speed and it should be done soon. But you better believe everything is getting triple checked.
Just pay attention to the details. You don't ever want to see green and blue flames.
Hopefully it works out. I recently did my sanatronic 562 and took off safety switch and put on amodel fan new bearings carbon brushes. It has same setup you run and I know it's done right. I also did tradition hwhich ran awesome until I fiddled with it.
Side note I'm either putting d80 speed switch on tradition or making it single speed. I'm have a d50 nozzle I'm going to put blue d80 not sure if Bojack or not but out on nozzle. I'm going to try to get me a 13 inch nozzle try to get to work on tradition. Jealous of all 13 inch heritage I'm making tradition 13inch nozzle blue bumper. Have my own Bojack tradition 13inch nozzle.
But don't fidde with things and be precise when building and it will treat you well.
Les

 

[ian1035nr]

I pulled up a parts list and also consulted with a supplier I get my genuine Kirby parts from, and the armature from any Kirby made from the 505 up to the 515 will fit and function. Although, it's hard to say just how it will effect the performance without looking at the number of windings. I might have tracked down a bran new armature specific to the 515, so I won't be tossing in the 510 armature unless I genuinely have no choice. I'd love to buy a brand new field magnet and armature from a D50; but that's a bit beyond my budget.

All the parts I've ordered are genuine Kirby parts. I've yet to see 3rd party carbon brushes, but I'm sure there's some lurking out there. This Kirby is definitely a cobbled together mess from a variety of models, but I have enough of a soft spot for it to use genuine replacement parts, it's not like I'm looking to flip this thing for a profit at any point.

There's no play in the holders for the carbon brushes, but I'll add checking them to my usual maintenance routine. Where abouts did you get new ones from? I pulled up a parts diagram and couldn't see the actual holders; just the brushes themselves and the caps that hold them into the motor housing.

I was a bit panicked to see the commutator's wear, I wasn't expecting it given that the vacuum still works so well. I've used it at other people's homes to clean their carpets and it still manages to outperform most uprights, so I certainly wasn't expecting things to be so dirty and worn down.

But when you rationalize it, this machine has been cleaning homes for 63 years, and is now in the hands of its 4th owner. And I can guaranty that I'm a bit more proactive with maintenance than those who had this machine before me. If the new armature lasts as long as the old one, this vacuum will outlive me!

 

[ian1035nr]

I pulled up some parts diagrams for various Kirby models, and I found that the 510 and 515 share the exact same armature, the original part number was 114959 and this seems to go all the way back to the 505, possibly further. So it looks like Kirby only dropped the resistance of the field magnet to increase the amperage.

The suggested part number, 114960 was introduced on the 560 and was discontinued a long time ago with the D50's armature (114967) and the D50's field magnet (103967) being offered as replacements. Those were discontinued as well, but there's still some new old stock kicking around.

As far as the brush holders go, Les, your D80s have a really different architecture compared to my old 515. The 515 is the last model to go without removable brush holders. The holders are pressed directly into the motor housing, there's really no way for them to come loose, and replacements were never made as a result. So it looks like I won't be worrying about loose brushes causing damage anytime soon.

But I thank you for telling me about the holders. After seeing how well my 515 cleaned their carpets, a friend of mine is on a quest to buy a Kirby of their own. I'm sure they'll find a newer model with removable holders, and I'll be sure to check them along with the rest of the wearable motor parts.

 

[broomvac]

That is surprising, indeed. I've never seen commutator wear beyond surface staining and a just a bit scarring at the leading edge of each bar, and I've serviced many motors. Most of the ones I've had apart were 1980 or later, though.

Perhaps commutator material has improved since the day your 515 was new? I would think motor design has also probably been improved, if even marginally, since that time. Carbon brushes are supposed to be located (I believe) along the "neutral plane" in an electric motor to minimize brush sparking and the wear that comes with it. I suppose that modern engineering may have helped the newer motors minimize sparking and therefore prolong commutator life, minimizing the wear you have encountered.

Along that line of thinking, lightly used parts from a later Kirby may be a good long-term solution for you.

Good luck!

 

[lesinutah]

Armature

Hey
What was in original 505-513 was 3 amp 513-515 505-sanstronic 7 after 513 is 4 amp same motor will fit 505 to s7. The coil I think 505-515 are shared 516 to s7 same. The only reason is different motor housing.
Carbon brushes I believe 505-classic 1 all the same. I could give history but it's easy to get.
Les

 

[rivstg1]

what does this mean?

I"m confused... you wrote , "What was in original 505-513 was 3 amp 513-515 505-sanstronic 7 after 513 is 4 amp same motor will fit 505 to s7"
run on sentence ? something not come through? It appears you started asking a question, then had a statement...but....

 

[kirbyclassiciii]

Rivstg1

Kelton,

Les was trying to figure out which models came with which armatures and fields in original production. The problem is, little information is available for the models with the 3 amp motors (up to the 513 1st series), but the 560-Sanitronic VII 4 amp motor group (114960 armature and 103960 field) will fit the motor housings of all older Kirbys going back to the model 3C, as per what the service bulletin in the picture I submitted says.

As to his question of carbon brushes, here are the two that are currently available:
118067 - for models 505 to Dual Sanitronic 80
118076 - for models 1CR Classic to Legend II

~Ben[this post was last edited: 10/4/2018-01:46]

 

[ian1035nr]

Eureka! (Not the vacuum brand)

In the time since I made this thread, I have been plagued by dashed hopes and false starts in the seemingly endless quest to get a replacement armature for my Kirby 515.

In my searches, I came across a new, old stock armature for a Kirby 1CR (part #114969).

It looked pretty darn similar to the armature off the Dual Sanitronic series (#114967), which is officially listed as a replacement part for old 500 models; And the bearings were all the same between the Classic 1CR and earlier 500 series.

With a $50 price tag I figured: Screw it, I'll risk it for a chocolate biscuit.

There was a delay in shipping, thanks to the seller taking over a week to ship the part, which then caused it to get caught up in the Canada Post strike. But it came in today!

If my celebratory interjection at the beginning of this post wasn't enough of an indicator, I'll sum it all up as follows:

IT WORKS!

Works quite well, really. No modifications needed.

Between the newer armature and the replacement plastic fan, my Kirby 515 has lost the charming grunt of the old motor, and I'll surely miss it.

And while I have a love for an all-original Kirby, this particular unit was a mashup of parts long before I got it. If it lasts another 63 years, I'll take a little bit of flak for having parts that aren't model-correct.

 

[madman]

Nice!

(I would still hang on to the old armature. You never know.)

 

[lesinutah]

hey

When Kirby rebuilds 505-512 3 amp motors they put 4 amp motors in the machines. The 4 amp motor is the same used from 513-sanatronic 7. The armature from the 3 amp and 4 amp might be the same. I know they only have 2 wires coming from the field coil. The bearings from 505-d80 are the same. The d50-d80 motor is made by GE or lamb. I dont know but matching field coils and armatures are a must. I dont know the manufacturer of the Kirby motor but mid run of the 5-5.5 amp motor was made by different companies. If you mix the armature up with the wrong field coil it may work now but it wont work. The classic motor was similar to d80 motor but its motor housing was different. The bearing are just for the Cr model. The classic motor is 5-5.5 amp. It has 4 or 8 wires. The armature prior to the d50 were 2 wire. The armature may fit. I would be safe and cross reference the capabilities.
The pre dual sanatronic motors were 1 speed anything after are 2 speed. If you mismatched parts its not if its when will it burn up your commutator or fry your field coil. Im just throwing caution out because Cr 2 speed 5 amp coil isn't made to run the 4 amp one speed motors made by a different manufacturer.

 

[ian1035nr]

So why does Kirby list the 114967, an armature from a higher amp motor, as being a direct replacement for pre-Sanitronic Kirbys? You can't just slap the coil associated to that newer armature into the old 500 series, either. They don't have a 2 speed safety switch for starters; and the method for connecting the carbon brushes to the field was very different on the 505-515 compared to the 516 and up.

Another user took the 114967 and tossed it into a Kirby 510 without replacing the field magnet; and they haven't reported any issues in the 5 years since that thread was made. If a 114967 can operate safely in a 3 amp motor, shouldn't a 114969 be fine in a 4 amp motor?

The subject of who manufactured Kirby motors seems to be fuzzy, at best. Old units seem to have been made by Black and Decker. There's a thread floating around here with a Dual 50 that has a GE manufactured motor.

So, if the 114967, from a GE motor, was the recommended replacement for older, Black and Decker Kirby's, doesn't seem any more weird than a 1CR armature in a 515.

I've got a couple spare coils from a 515, and time to look for a 114960 if I really want to be safe, but now I'm interested to see how this incompatible armature works out, I'm a sucker for a good science experiment. So far, the motor doesn't run any hotter, there's no excessive brush wear or sparking after 2 hours of use. So, I'll continue to risk it for a chocolate biscuit.

 

[lesinutah]

Hey

The 512 3 amp mosar was invented in 1930s. The 513 came the new motor. The only motor and coil Kirby makes for 4 amp motor. The 3 amp motor is no longer available.
The coil can operate similar motors. Kirby made them and replaced 3 amp motor with 4 amp. It may be you can get a bigger coil to operate 4 amp motor. My 3 amp motors I have I won't risk changing out original parts.
The motors 505-523 had a safety switch with one speed. 505 to sanatronic 07 are single speed. The safety switch can be bypassed the safety switch wiring all the exact same. The 2 speed motor requires a different coil. I imagine you can use credit coil to operate 4 amp engine. It's basically only using half the coils ability. I have put bigger motors on smaller coils with catastrophic results. I fried my d80s. I'm glad you got this to work. I'm here to caution people are reading to know potential pitfalls. Watching The vacuum burn to ground after a lot of sweat put into building it.
So kudos to you. I just want head the warning.
Les

 

[kirbyclassiciii]

Vintage Kirby service bulletin regarding replacement of armatures and fields, 1956.

~Ben