Electrolux bag seal failure and design flaw

[delaneymeegan]

Those of us who love our metal Electrolux vacuum cleaners, have no other filtration except the bag. And a four ply bag is awsome.

One issue is, there is no pre-filter. There is also no exhaust filter. Even Kenmores and Hoovers have those.

So, sealing any possible void is essential. Yet, the typical Electrolux bag is supplied with a tab accross the opening. This tab should be removed before using the bag. This is also true of the Electrolux uprights, that have a similar, but longer bag.

As Electrolux137/Charles so kindly explained in another thread titled "The great HEPA debate", there was a design problem with the LX and LXI models, and a bag that was "self sealing" was necessary to keep from disaster:

"When you remove the bag from the machine, the tab closes off the little opening to keep dirt from getting out. This was particularly important with a (correctly functioning) LX or LXI. When the machine shut off and ejected the bag, the bag would sail -- at great speed -- across the room for 5-6 ft. When the bag landed on the floor, if the membrane wasn't sealed, dirt would "poof" out of the opening."

So, the long ago created LX and LXI are distant memories, and frankly were rather obnoxious, but every manufacturer has had its no so great designs. I still love my metal Electrolux canisters.

The tab serves no real benefit when used in any other Electrolux AND more importantly, when left in place, serves to allow dirt to leak into the vacuum chamber, and because there is no other filters in a metal canister, get spewed out of the machine.

I did a little experiment using my Ultralux Classic to illustrate why these leak when used with the tab.

How things typically proceed when inserting a vac bag in an Electrolux canister.

I'm using an off-brand bag and look what happened. The cardboard tab actually ripped the rubber. If I weren't aware of this issue, I may have just closed the door and been done with it. It will still work for this experiment.

 

[delaneymeegan]

The experiment is simple:

Simply cut the bag off the cardboard collar and show the problem.

 

[delaneymeegan]

From the inside of the bag, you can see the large gap.

It's pretty simple. The cardboard is FLAT, where as the fill tube is ROUND. With the two next to each other there is obviously going to be a leak.

 

[delaneymeegan]

With a light from behind, you can see the gap even better.

This is where dirt will escape the bag.

Yes, there is a flimsy rubber bell seal, in addition to the rubber collar of the bag, but that is not reliable.

 

[delaneymeegan]

And finally , how it SHOULD be for efficient Electrolux-ing

This is how it SHOULD look, WITHOUT the tab.

A nice, clean rubber seal around the ENTIRE fill tube, just like any other vacuum.

I've been using Electrolux since 1991 when I aquired my first Olympia, and in 1997 started using the uprights. I've always removed the tab and it's kept from having any dust inside the cleaner that obviously would have got through the motor and into the room.

If one seriously needs to cover the hole of a used vac bag when done, it doesn't matter what brand, a piece of packing tape or duct tape would work much better than a loose piece of cardboard.

Frankly, Electrolux bags slide out of the machines so easily, it doesn't disturb the dust on the inside, so I've never noticed dust seepage when removing a bag.

 

[vacman1961]

The rubber on the bag does nothing but keep the dirt in after the bag is removed, the rubber seal on the front cover is what keeps the machine from sealing. Yes, the replacement bags are junk, the seals do rip, if you use Genuine Aerus bags there is no chance of the self sealing tab ripping the rubber on the bag. I think in 66 years Electolux has done a lot of research on this. The original bags are 4 ply so there was never a need for a pre filter or after filter for dust, the after filters are mostly for trapping carbon dust that the motor throws off as the carbon brushes wear. As the self sealing tab goes, I would not rip it off, it is there to do a job and it does it well.

 

[tolivac]

I think 'Lux vacuums could use a motor filter,though-have seen many of these fine machines motors wrecked from leaking bags.Culprits-drywall and plaster powder,face poweders,carpet powders,BB's-yes BB's and nails lots of other things that rip thru the bag and go into the motor fans.I make my own "safety" filters for the 'Lux machines I have just in case.A filter is cheaper than a new motor.worked with a former 'Lux dealer in the DC area on this.He agreed the machines should have a safety filter and NOT rely on the bag.Most other canisters I have or used have the motor filters.A motor filter does not hamper the machine performance at all.Just protects the motor in case the bag breaks or leaks.Remember when you pick up something with a canister cleaner the object could be flying into the bag as fast as 100MPH!

 

[delaneymeegan]

vacman1961 - "The rubber on the bag does nothing but keep the dirt in AFTER the bag is removed".
I think you'll agree that other manufacturers bags have the same set up with a rubber collar on the bag and a fill tube upon which the bag is attached.
AND they don't have any other rubber pieces up against the bag.

So the rubber collar is clearly a necessity to seal the bag to the fill tube, no matter what brand.

"...I would not rip it off, it is there to do a job and it does it well."

What, IYO does it do?





Tolivac- Good points. I once bought a really nice upright Electrolux, only a few years old, that was filthy. Someone had been vacuuming up gravel and it went right into the motor somehow. When I got I took the whole thing apart and cleaned it BEFORE testing the motor. So glad I did. The motor had all kinds of little rocks in it. I cleaned all that out, put it back together, put on a new switch and light bulb, and it worked perfectly.

What I do to get more 'mileage' from a bag, when I'm going to vacuum fine dust, is: after I've removed the tab and installed the bag, turn it on, get a roll of toilet paper, put pencil through the toilet roll and feed the end into the vac. It will quickly suck the paper into the bag, off the roll. Don't do too much. Maybe about 10 feet of tp.

What this does is give incoming dirt a place to stick, INSTEAD of the vac bag itself. I think it was our local Electrolux dealer who told me that.


Happy Vacuuming in the new year, everyone.

 

[vacuumlad1650]

my rubber membranes dont rip. let me get some more bags and i will show you

 

[pr-21]

Aerus has a charcoal filter for type c that fits in the bottom of the bag cage. It seems thick enough to catch something, if the bag were to break. I did try the off brand bags and quickly went back to genuine aerus bags. I wrote a post awhile back about writing Aerus about the lining coming open and just leaving the blue outer paper to filter, thus trying the off brand bags. I even sent them samples...never really heard back after the initial calls.....If you notice Aerus states that their bags filters as well as the 4 ply previous version...The newer version is the one that the inner lining had the problem. I ended up buying genuine nos 4 ply off of ebay, that should last a long time.

PR-21

I do leave my tab on the bag, I grab it to remove the bag in the metal bodied canisters. The groove the cardboard collar sits in is pretty tight when you put a new bag in.

 

[human]

This got me a little bit curious so I checked both my 1205 and my Super J, both of which are fitted with a third party "Multi-Filter" brand four-ply bag. Neither rubber collar was ripped. I realize that's not a statistically significant sampling, but there you go.

 

[caligula]

I don't touch anything. I use my model LX, and when the wrapper (which they called the paper beg back in 1952) get's full it's ejected. It's so clean you could toss it on a white tablecloth, in fact I've done just that!

 

[bikerray]

I still love my LX and LXI machines, and they both work wonderfully well. As a point of reference the Electrolux did use an after filters through the Automatic E.

There is a rubber collar/seal around the inlet tube that presses up against the cardboard to seal the bag and yes you will see some dirt and dust around this collar but it shouldn't leak into the bag chamber.

I'm also finding packages of genuine Aerus and Electrolux bags at Goodwill all the time. I've also see the generic bags there too. You can usually pick them up for a dollar or two.

 

[delaneymeegan]

Bikerray- On the after filter used up to the E, was it part of the machine, or was it an optional piece one put on?
I'm thinking of the hospital version of some Electrolux I've seen.

Yes, there is a rubber collar that presses against the bag. When I first started using Electrclux, I hadn't really caught on about the bag tab removal. I noticed, when opening the bag door that one could see some dust and some larger pieces of debri around the bag, inside the area of where the collar would be. That's when I thought about it and realized stuff was leaking out of the bag. It also wasn't rare to see large pieces on the fan cage opening at the bottom of the vac. chamber. (How much other stuff actually went through?)

I compared installing an Electrolux bag to installing a bag in a Hoover Spirit, or a Kenmore canister, and others, all of which have a rubber collar on the bag. That's when I realized the tab had to go. If you think things work good when using a bag with the tab, they will only get Better without it (Unless your using a fully functioning LX or LXI).

No problems since.

You're finding packages of Electrolux bags at Goodwill. I guess it's not surprising. The Chicago area was a big market for Electrolux. I remember speaking with a vac shop owner in Milwaukee about if he got Electroluxs in and he said no. MKE is more Hoovers and it was Chicagoland that had Electroluxs. Gosh I remember paying upwards of $15 to $20 a box for genuine bags, and that was 20 years ago.

I recently received a large stash of bags with the purchase of a Legacy. About 10 of the bags are off-brand. In looking at them, they seem so old. The rubber is sticking to the cardboard and when I put the bag in there was no give and it just ripped. It's just another reason to remove the tab.

At one point, found a G Electrolux that had a bag in it, and it was manufactured without the annoying tab. I'm not sure what brand it was.

 

[caligula]

Electrolux Model 11 through E uutomatic.

The after filter was just that, a round or square filter that fit behind the motor. Bacically where the blower was. It was used to trap the fine dust from the cloth bag as well as the carbon from the motor brushes. I say round as the models prior to the LX were round, and the square ones were for the LX, LXI, E, and AE.

Starting in 1949 Electrolux did extensive research, to create the disposable bag, and kept perfecting it long after the E was introduced. And at this point, the filtration of these bags eliminated the need for the rear filter.

Go to 'Lux 30/XXX tools' in the archives section here at Vintage. The date is January 3, 2013. It's a very long thread with well over 100 reply's and some awesone pictures. Everything you need to know on the early Electrolux models is there.

 

[electrolux137]

~
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All I can say is, it's just too bad that Electrolux never had all these experts on-board to supervise and direct the design of their products. Especially since these folks have vastly more knowledge and understanding of vacuum cleaner design than Electrolux ever dreamed of having!

With that having been said: Lest I be accused of joining in on a gang-beating of a dead horse, I won't say any more on the matter.

 

[delaneymeegan]

Retro-spective vision is amazingly clear. If only we could go back in time, and adjust certain products in hopes of making them better. I'm sure we'd all have our list of which products to improve or change.

But alas, we're all just pathetic human animals filled with countless imperfections and an inevitable push to die.

I guess all we can do is enjoy life..... and have our favorite vacuums to clean up and make life grand.


<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Stopped today</span> at one of the lower end vac dealers in the area.  He's literally just down the street from a dryer I bought.   I got some bags and checked if he had any vacs from the list I gave him a month ago.


 


Canisters, he claims, are coming back in fashion because people are ripping up carpeting and reverting to hardwood floors.  The homes in that area were built mainly up to the 1950s, so a lot of hardwood.   And the crap they sell in the stores now, apparently doesn't last, or people don't know how to take care of bagless machines.


 


He was also talking about smaller stores closing and his suppliers evaporating.  Kirby and Rainbow dealers, etc.  "People are buying online", he said.  And he was talking about how so many parts are now NLA.  "the new stuff is all disposable and not repairable, and you can't get parts for the older stuff."  He can't sell anything for over $100 in his neighborhood. 


 


It's kind of hard watching a beloved product practically evaporate.  What are the younger generation going to do if they decide they want to collect stuff they knew from the 2000s? 

 

[kloveland]

I semi-understand why some people on this forum insist on only using genuine bags in their cleaners. Personally, I use genuine and non-genuine while some generic bags are el-chepo. Some generics are just as good as the genuine. I’ve used some generic bags in my Electrolux tanks that worked just as well as the genuine bags. A person has to be mindful and inspect the quality of the bag. I’ve also used some one or two ply bags that have been awful and ripped and sent dirt through the motor. I’ve worked on a few Electrolux tanks and have seen some pretty dirty motors. I’m not sure if the previous owners used generic or genuine bags. I’ve never seen a dirty motor in a Tristar, Airway, Fairfax or cleaners with multiple filters. When I take apart a canister cleaner and there is no dust or dirt in the motor, I know it’s a good cleaner aka. Tristar and Airway. Filter Queen seems to be pretty good too!

In a fan first upright the worst that can happen is a generic bag can filter poorly or build up pressure and cause a hole to develop in the bag. So I’m not really worried about damaging the motor in a fan first upright by using non-genuine bags. The worst that can happen is poor filtration and possibly decreased efficiency.

 

[bikerray]

Caligula the model 11 did not have an after filter it started with the model 12. The model 11 did have a filter that fit in front of the fan and just behind the bag. I'm not sure if it was an option or came standard with the model 11. I know my model 11 has the filter.