Does Rainbow E2 Black really need a hepa filter?

[mark40511]

I'm trying to remember but since 2006....I've only gone through 2 HEPA filters on my rainbow and I'm now on my third. I've never used it without a hepa filter. I will say one thing I do... I fill the basin with more water...over the line..Not so much water than it causes issues...but more water than is recommended. Like 1/2 inch over the dome and line. I cringe when I see rainbow videos on youtube and I can tell there's not enough water in the basin..

anywayz - My house isn't super dirty because I'm a clean freak...but I've vacuumed up some nasty stuff with my rainbow..for a while I was using my rainbow to suck the bin of a bagless vacuum clean...you really can't get much more nasty than that..Afterwards, I would clean the separator and check the filter and it was fine...I've never experienced a rainbow filter clogging personally...the only reason I changed the two so far is because I just felt like it had been so long...

Yes - opening your windows and fresh air is best unless you're somewhere dusty. I had nice fresh air pouring through my house the all day yesterday.

 

[electromatik]

I must take some issues with the comments above which claim that HEPA vacuums are "overkill" or don't do much to clean air. I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all. That's not my intention. However, there are many studies that show that HEPA vacuums (properly sealed) do in fact improve air quality in the home.

The act of vacuuming itself stirs up "latent" dirt trapped in the fibers of carpet or rugs. If a vacuum is poorly constructed or has poor filtration, more of this becomes airborne. A powerful vacuum will pull in and trap much of this before it becomes airborne. Poor performing vacuums will slowly gather dust in the bag, in the seals, in the hoses, etc. and often expel more dirt than they are picking up.

Good quality, sealed vacuums DO in fact improve the air quality after vacuuming. Some for several hours afterward.

Laboratory testing confirms what I have written. Labs with hermetically sealed rooms and spectrometers and other equipment can measure dirt before, during, and after vacuums are operated and have measured this data. I'm a person that likes scientific rigor and need evidence to support claims.

But I will say this. HEPA's make it easier for a vacuum to reach this status, but it isn't the ONLY way. Proper sealed construction is more important. While one can say that HEPA filters are not necessary, they do help and in my opinion are worth it.

 

[rivstg1]

@kloveland. from my experience with Rainbows, the clogging of the filters are mostly from people not changing them over time...and vacuuming up stuff that it wasn't designed to...but more than that last point, I noticed NOT changing the water often enough contributes to the dirt/dust NOT being submerged into the water ( due to already being saturated with dirt) and THAT new dirt going straight into the filter. I"ve only changed 2 filters in 12 years on my rainbows from , what I feel , is proper water management.

 

[tekjunkie28]

Lab tests are not home tests. Sure you and sit different vacs in different chambers and get different results... I'm telling you right now that you air in your home is changing every minute. If your air quality in your home is bad enough that a vacuum cleaner is improving it the you have some serious issues. Get a blower door test done and then come talk to me.

 

[vaclab]

electromatik, please give us the links

that prove air quality is improved in a typical home. I would LOVE to see that.

Actually owning a newer type particle meter shows a very different picture of vacuum filtration. Here are some general numbers to consider:

1) Assume a small sealed bedroom with minimal furniture (no air in or out) = 1000 cubic feet.

Let's say the filter exhaust is 100 CFM (which is a lot), it would take at least 10 minutes to cycle the air through the vacuum, although room vacuum time would be around 3 minutes (carpet).

OK, great so the air is now cleaner. Now open the bedroom door and what happens? Your "dirty" home air instantly rushes in. So a sealed room isn't practical.

2) Assume an open door and a central HVAC system. The air is fairly clean already (hopefully) and the overall room (or floor) air volume is 10,000 cubic feet. Even cleaning at 100 CFM, the overall air quality improvement is negligible, although I've measured a short term improvement.

3) Assume an old, leaky house with poor insulation and no HVAC at all. Generally speaking poor indoor air quality. Any vacuum with high filtration would have such a small, temporary improvement in air quality it would be difficult to measure at all.

To see more about closed/open room particle tests, check out my playlist:

Bill

 

[mark40511]

Well...

One thing I can say for sure (at least my experience)...when it comes to dusting the house...I have my hepa bagged vac..(which I love, btw) and my rainbow. I'm a clean freak but when I clean I don't do the entire house at once time..Since I do everything so thoroughly..... I'll do one room at a time..getting high and low and everything in between...over the years..I'll sometimes use my Rainbow while other times use my HEPA bagged... Now..there's not a hint of dust in the bag chamber...even going months without changing the bag... I can say for 100% certainty that I have to dust the house again SOONER if I used the HEPA bagged vs the Rainbow...I'm not sure why...the science says this shouldn't be the case...but it is just something I've noticed.. LOL...but that doesn't stop me from using my HEPA bagged more often because I have to be in certain mood to drag my rainbow out.

 

[vaclab]

Dusting Sooner With HEPA

This isn't a surprise if you understand the difference between what a Rainbow expels versus what a HEPA bagged machine expels.

Consider the HEPA filtered exhaust. It's clean, dry air that will disturb your existing air. In short, it blows existing dust around without adding to it.

Older Rainbows (D4C) blasted your existing air with an unfiltered water mist, hence the "water washed smell". So, if mist is blown everywhere the tiny water particles will attach themselves to existing dust particles and drop them to the floor. Fabrics will absorb some as well.

Newer HEPA Rainbows have less "water washed smell" because the exhaust is obviously filtered now.

Bill

 

[tekjunkie28]

A typical install with central air "should" move around 400 cfm per ton. So if you have a 2 ton system it "should" move around 800 cfm. Now the numbers are probably much lower then that due to how most ductwork us undersized and most central air units are oversized. (bad old school practices and sloppy installs)

In Arizona you might be pushing 500 cfm per ton and in florida it might be closer to 300 cfm per ton for dehumidification purposes but still... that is WAY higher then a vacuum. And your AC should be running non stop all day when its at or above whatever you design temp is. If you filtering through a 4" merv 11 filter then great but make sure you are actually filtering that. Duct leakage is typically high.

NO vacuum will ever clean your air.. it barely is able to clean its own air.

I dont agree with the statement that older rainbows blew out mist but Id like to see that. I bet that came about from people who didnt know how to use it. I am impressed with the rainbow cleaning vs other machines. It does great at picking up fine particles like sand which is what I want. I dont care about filtration. If I did I wouldnt be living in a house. Even in my home with a window about 1" cracked all the time the CO2 levels are approaching 2000ppm. Recommended is 1000ppm, best is 800ppm, outside is under 400ppm. Measuring CO2 buildup is the best way to assume other pollutants are also high in the home. If you want clean air then get an ERV!

 

[mark40511]

Dust is my biggest enemy..that and spider webs...I'm pretty good at controlling it if I keep up with vacuuming...But you can't have clutter or trying to dust everything is pointless and makes trying to control it much more difficult. Once you control your clutter it's pretty easy to vacuum everything...I'm not sure what the air quality is minus the dust...but dust is what I aim to remove...I already know the air quality probably isn't great in any home...regardless how clean...but dust annoys the hell outta me...when the sun shines in the room and I don't see dust flying all over or on flat surfaces.. I'm happy...

I still fill my house with eucalyptus while I'm using my rainbow. I swear I can smell it for days after cleaning..

I will ad this small thing: someone I live with uses a CPAP machine to sleep... they took it to the doctor after years to have the machine checked out... the doctor said....are you even using this?? this is the cleanest one anyone has ever brought me to check.. LOL LOL.. I love hearing things like that.

 

[electro]

Hey Mark!. We have had this talk years ago , but for some reason when I use the Rainbow ONLY, I can see the difference in any dust that appears on the dark wood furniture. I don't know if the Rainbow filters better but I do know I have less dust and no odor when using the machine. I can't make that claim with other vacuums. Thinking about sending mine to be cleaned and new hepa filter as I have had it 12 years and it has seen a LOT of use. I got an estimate from the Rainbow dealer. I do take care of the machine and clean the separator often. I remember one time going to a vac store and they were showing an expensive German made cleaner. Even with the demonstration at the store, I could smell that stale, dusty odor when the machine was turned on. Sure no expert here and not claiming my Rainbow to be better than others but in my house there is a difference when I use it exclusively. Not sure I like the new model with the smaller water basin and the changes in the power nozzle.

 

[luxlife]

CPAP machines

I’ve only seen three of them up close, but they each had their own filtration setup for incoming air. Not trying to start a new discussion, but I thought it was worth mentioning for the sake of accuracy.

 

[mark40511]

CPAP's do have a filter...but they can get nasty from what I understand...even with a filter..

Trying to put it in words. Say you put some essential oil on a cotton ball and suck it into a bagged vac...that's fine. You can smell it..it smells good...but if you put drops of the same oil into the water and start using the rainbow...it's like a totally different "feel and smell"... Maybe I'm crazy? My rainbow is from 2006.. a gold 2 speed. The HEPA hasn't been changed in years and the fans still look good. I've taken super good care of it... I hate the new SRX from what I've seen. At one point I almost upgraded to the black rainbow (which I think is the best of all of them) but the SRX is a step down I think...even from mine. I'm glad I still have it and it's in good condition...After all these years having it...even though I don't use it every time I vacuum...I still wouldn't want to be without it.

 

[mark40511]

Hey Electro

Is that Tom from Indiana??? with the black rainbow? You have the best one.. KEEP it. LOL The new one is definitely a step down...they took the power away and the basin in smaller... Do you still clean the church? I know you use your rainbow for all kinds of cleaning...your porch...the garage..etc.

Maybe if I get bored I'll snap some pics of the inside of my rainbow...really not sure how it's stayed so clean all these years because I've used it a LOT...but the fans still look great and my machine still looks almost MINT except for the dolly which has a funky spot on it where years ago I fell off of a ladder with it a part of the dolly hit took most of the brunt of the fall but it caused a discolored spot on the dolly.... I think that was in the first year of my owning it. (LOL) That's when I ended up buying the 14-foot non-electric hose LOL...best purchase ever for my rainbow. I can even use my 14-foot rainbow hose on my cirrus HEPA bagged vac if I don't feel like using my rainbow...I can pop the cirrus hose off and it fits right into the 14-foot rainbow hose...and I can use all the rainbow attachments, etc...but the smell...that rainbow smell....You can't beat it...that's why I always end up using it pretty frequently.

 

[electro]

Mark, I won't be buying any new vacuums. I checked my hepa filter and I think it SHOULD be renewed. I also need to have the latch repaired on the hose. You are correct. I do use my Rainbow to clean the porch, blinds, garage floor and have used the sprayer to clean my siding on the house. I still use it when it is my turn to help clean the church. I don't like using the commercial machines as They always smell, even with new bags installed. The only NEW machine that interests me the German made Delphin. I like it's unique tools and power nozzle. I had forgotten you bought that other brand of water filter vacuum a few years back.
When I take mine in for service, I think I will buy that new small nozzle to pick up water or use when you shampoo stair carpets. I need a slight repair on my Aquamate too. They replaced the belt but did not get it snapped back right.
Here is a thought: It seems most new machines that use hepa bags expect you to replace the filter once a year. My Rainbow has had a LOT of use and is 11 years old and is just NOW ready to replace the hepa, so to my thinking the water does a pretty good job or my hepa filter would have been clogged years ago. There is not any trace of dust around my exhaust and never any odor of any kind when the machine is turned on or in use.
I can see where the fans would accumulate a fine layer of dust as the water mist would evaporate during use. My filter is not clogged but with a flashlight you can now see a fine layer of dust on the filter, so I would think it would benefit from a new filter after 11 years.. No expert here and I don't think the Rainbow is the best for everyone or even the most powerful machine but mine has been well made, trouble free and for me the most important-no odor-ever.

 

[vaclab]

Tekjunkie28,

You said "I dont agree with the statement that older rainbows blew out mist but Id like to see that. I bet that came about from people who didnt know how to use it."

For the first 60 years of Rexar/Rainbow, there was no exhaust filter and dealers spoke highly of "water washed air". How do you think the air gets "water washed" without water? This "mist" I speak of is very fine of course, but it is still a mist.

As you can see in the video, the particle count increases 61% and the relative humidity increases by 2.6%. And that's just in 10 minutes.

Similar results can be had by purchasing a $20 humidifier.

Newer Rainbows have a HEPA filter that does a great job of filtering the water particles emitted, but they significantly reduce the "water washed" smell, which I quite like.