Curious Question about Kirbys ...

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nycwriter

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As I peruse eBay I notice there are tons of listings not only for vintage Kirbys, but for relatively new ones. And a surprising number of "Used only once!" listings.

What gives?

And why is it nearly impossible to find the same number of "gently used" Electroluxes?

I'd assume that the Kirby listings are estate sales from people's departed grandmothers and aunts, but that doesn't explain the plethora of nearly-new Kirbys. Do people really buy them and use them just a couple of times? Are they too heavy or a pain in the ass to use?

What's going on?
 
This is mainly down to the techniques used to sell the Kirbys, where the salesperson will be paid not by the number of demos done, but purely only by the number of Kirbys sold. I think you can put the rest of the puzzle together from this.
Bear in mind that Kirbys are only sold new via in home demos by professional salespeople, and those salespeople are usually very good at getting sales - or they don't get paid.
Only after the customer has signed the credit agreement and used the Kirby for the first time does it maybe dawn on them that the Kirby is very heavy and perhaps not for them after all. Trying to then get a refund from Kirby when the vac is not faulty or damaged, is difficult, so hence many people try to cut their losses by selling on EBay.
Kirby Sales methods have always been based on an in home demo and many people are not able to refuse a good salesman who is eager to get a sale, and who will offer irresistible deals or credit terms to get the desired outcome. I went through Kirby training back in the mid 90's and it is very rigorous. We had to Eat Kirby, Sleep Kirby, Dream Kirby, and Talk Kirby - oh and SELL Kirby, Every day - or there was no pay.
 
I could have not said it better myself, I am always amazed at the amount of Kirby's we get as trade inns New Kirby's. In South Africa you will battle to find vintage vacuums but unused Kirby's are a dime a dozen. If you really want the latest Kirby, Just wait a month or two and you will be able to pick one up at a quarter of the price of a new one. Just recently there was a brand new in box with all attachments Legend for sale But I am not that into Kirby's although its my that is one of my favorite models I already have one.
 
I agree

I like the Kirby for its performance,most kirby's are financed and when money gets tight people try to sell their machines.I also agree that during the demos people don't get proper training on how to correctly use their machines and they get frustrated .I think the distributors need to give exellent customer support to keep customers comfortable with their vacuums.
One attachment that new kirby owners should be shown is the long hose.This hose is great for stairs and limits dragging the heavy machine around a room.With this hose the unit provides plenty of airflow for dusting and floor vacuuming.
 
perhaps there ought to be a thread on...

what you need to know before you buy or even let a door-to-door vacuum salesperson into your home. I would recommend changing the law for returns from 3 days to 1 month.
 
The first job of the salesman is to get into the house. The second, most important job, is to make the home owner UNHAPPY with their present vacuum - usually through a trick called "he who goes first - loses". That's the one where they get the home owner to vacuum "100 times" over one spot with their present vac, then the Kirby goes one or two strokes, and the salesman shows them the dirt their 'old' vac missed. It's a trick. If you can con the salesman (who often hasn't been selling more than a few days) to go first, then use your 'old' vac over the same spot and show him the dirt the Kirby missed, he won't know what to do or say. All door to door vac sales use this trick.

If you buy a vacuum at retail, you usually are shopping for one. You made an informed decision to buy because you were 'in the market'. People who buy Kirby, Rainbow, etc. are not in the market the day the salesman shows up.
 
Late model Luxes.....

ARE hard to buy. Current models aren't seen much...which means customers like them and they stay out there in homes.


 


Little story about my Lux Guardian upright search:


 


I've had this machine on my radar for a few months, having decided to rework the vacuum gear for the newly acquired home. So as is my custom, I read forums to research and go off to Ebay to hopefully locate one. It's my usual custom to buy light used goods of high quality - being of modest income - to save money yet still get quality.


 


The effort for the most part was futile. Not oft seen - maybe three or four total over four months.


 


So I call my closest Aerus/Lux dealer, and strike a good deal with my old UltraLux/QVC version in trade for a new one. I am so impressed with the machine that I'm thinking I still would like to find another light use version of it, since I really like and use the upright often....plus I bought my new one unit only (no attachments). And it seemed I was in luck: I find one with the full electric attachment kit, seller states it's six months old and selling because they pulled carpet in favor of all hard floors. Unit gets here, and it turns out it's the early version - great condition machine and attachments unused, but it's the early version, which pulls less than the new version's 395 airwatts.  Thought that wouldn't be an issue since it was six months old (and had receipts to prove it), but apparently he was sold an older stock version (most dealers had the higher airflow motor by spring 2011).


 


Saw another from a used vac dealer this week, and quizzed him about which one it was (he didn't even know there were two different motors in Guardian Uprights) and found out it was older too.


 


Point being that current edition Luxes aren't found much on the 'bay at all - canisters as well. I've yet to see a Guardian Platinum on there, and only a few Guardian Ultras (predecessor to the Platinum).


 


I remember some years ago - early/mid 2000's maybe - when new Luxes were all over Ebay. Guardians were all over the place NIB for a grand. I assume some of the sales force was trying to expand sales via the web.....and I also assume that Aerus/Lux put a stop to that because it's been some time ago that those machines ceased being seen on Ebay.


 


So yeah - I feel your pain regarding recent Luxes on Ebay. I can't afford to dish out list prices for them so light used is what I look for. I do have to say that I was pleased to be able to strike a reasonable deal on my new Guardian Upright, because I do feel good about being able to support new sales.......it does help keep them in biz, and I get a warranty out of the deal. Trouble is it's so good I want another one
smiley-cool.gif
 
It would be nice if Kirby Distributors sent......

the saleperson back in a few weeks to go over the proper use. If someone buys a Kirby and does not understand how to convert it to a canister, blower, polisher, etc, than they will just use it in the upright mode. When the first belt breaks, they will quit using it thinking it is broken. With that said, I sold one of my Kirby's to a coworker who's wife's family always had Kirby's. When they came to pick it up, I did not have to show her anything about it. She was properly trained in the use of the Kirby.

Remember, the Kirby can look very difficult to use, but when you get the basics down, it is very user friendly. Sure the shampooer takes a little practice to get the best results. The carpet fluffer brush is wonderful to restore naps on carpet and I have used the portable sander to redo my wood kitchen table. No dust and very nice finish.

Back to the point, more training would mean less Kirbys being sold on Ebay. However you can find NIB on Ebay when smaller distributors go out of business and sell their stock to an ebay sellar. You get a better price, but no training. If you are a vacuum collector, no problem as we are always interested in learning about changes and modifications to any vacuum cleaner, including the Kirby.

Sincerely,

PR-21
 
72 hours

Yes, the government calls it a cooling off period. All people that sell in the home anything on contract over $50 are given 3 business days to back out in writing.Kirby people I have found from talking to customers sometimes don't tell them or give them a hard time about it. In our area they come from over 80 miles away and it is hard to get in touch with them. All you see them for is trying to sell new and not taking care of the product after the sale.
Aerus Electrolux salesmen are told to tell the people and the contract has a whole page on it.
When one buys on TV you have the 30 days.
 
It's really sad ...

The Kirby is an amazing product with a rich American heritage.

It does a wonderful product a serious injustice when such shady sales tactics are employed.

I feel the same way about Amway products; their core line of products simply cannot be equalled. They are amazing, as natural as you can get, and wonderful for the environment. The company itself has received many environmental awards.

It's just so unfortunate that its whole distribution infrastructure has tarnished their reputation.

I honestly believe that if Kirbys and Aeruses were sold retail, alongside the Mieles and the Dysons, they both would kick the plastivacs' asses -- even with a slight price premium (up to $1000).

If people could try them out side-by-side in their local stores -- with no high-pressure sales tactics right in their own homes -- most people who could afford it would seriously consider paying the premium for either one of these vac systems. The solid, quality feel ALONE would be enough to sway most people.

And think of how many more units they'd sell if they opened up their distribution chain to retail outlets!!

Aerus and Kirby -- are you listening???
 
I'm waiting...

I'm waiting to see which DTD company cracks first and begins to offer their product to vacuum stores. Filter Queen did it in the 80s with the Princess line of vacuums. These were wonderful vacuums for vacuum stores because Miele was still a relatively small entity in most of the country yet and the Princess was a premium canisters that could be sold at a premium price. Tom Gasko was a huge Princess dealer and from what he told me, the reason the Princess line was discontinued was because people would buy a Filter Queen from the DTD salesmen and then call the vacuum store the next day to see if it was a good buy or not (before they could simply google it), The vacuum dealer would tell them about the princess, normally half the price for the same machine with a longer hose, better power nozzle (Small one, not the shoe box one) and the customers would call their DTD person, return the Filter Queen and buy a Princess from the vacuum store. The DTD people began to complain and riot about the Princess line so Filter Queen made the Optima and a line of badly designed vacuums until they finally realized their attempts were futile and they abandoned the entire idea.

Sadly, I believe it's too late for these companies to begin to offer their machines in vacuum stores, most successful stores are already heavily invested into one brand, in my store and most others across the country it's Miele and Riccar. I'm not going to flip my entire store around just to offer one product and since most DTD companies only offer one model (Electrolux is really the only multi model DTD company) it makes it a lot harder to make that machine fit the customers needs. If a customer comes into my store that has Stone, wood and marble flooring with Frieze and wool rugs, I have multiple options they can look at different price points. But if you only had Kirby as your upright, then you would loose a serious amount of sales because the lack of features that customers consider standard on machines now (i.e. Lifetime belt, tools on-board, etc). Would some stores jump at the chance? Sure probably because they do not have access to the lines they want so there could be a potential for a market there.
 
The other issue with retail......

.....is the sheer numbers of machines that a company like Aerus would have to build for today's retail market. If they went into a chain store like Best Buy or Sears - just ONE of those companies would require vacs in the hundreds of thousands if not millions on an immediate basis. When a company has to manufacture those kind of numbers there's bound to be some issues with quality control......although Electrolux did offer a line of machines in Sears stores in the early 90's and did well with it.


 


The other issue is if a company like Aerus/Lux placed machines in more than one store - the competition would become a race to the bottom in terms of price. With the current DTD setup the dealers have better control of profitability - what they decide to sell those machines for. If a Guardian Upright, for example, were offered in mass retail settings, it wouldn't be long before the Aerus small dealers were selling less machines or forced to drop prices too low to keep those small shops going.


 


Given the market these high end vac companies seek to sell to, being absent from mass market retail settings isn't so much of an issue. The high end customer, in part, seeks a bit of exclusivity, and likes that they own something not seen in mass retail. I do however think that some of these companies can benefit from a bit more visibility - more "storefronts" so more people know who Aerus is, for example. But my home area is a testament to the fact that they are still a force in the biz: our local Aerus/Lux shop closed, but those salespeople who worked out of that shop just moved to the nearest shop about 50 miles away from here, and are selling a lot of machines. I had to seek them out, but when I found that shop on Aerus's dealer locator and called them, there were all the old Lux guys I knew from years ago. There's guys with 20+ years of experience - one in fact with 50 years of experience, still selling Aerus machines at EIGHTY - and only canisters to boot. This guy has a pool of customers that calls him when they need machines, and he keeps good contact with them - and the word-of-mouth still has his database expanding. He goes down to the shop weekly and gets what he needs, and services his customers without ever canvassing. So there is still good strength in the word of mouth and offering a good product.


 


But striking a balance of smaller shops vs. mass market retail is tough. I do agree that Aerus could really kick some serious butt if their machines were sitting alongside current offerings in these larger retail stores. The question is how to carry out such a plan without losing control of profitability AND service that a high end customer deserves.
 
The problem is: most Door to Door vacs are NOT disposable. They require service, both in and out of warranty. Can you imagine, really, if the Aerus canister or Kirby upright were sitting at Sam's Club and Wal-Mart, right next to the $47 Bissell? Yes, there are people who don't want 'cheap' vacs, but the average customer knows nothing about vacuums. One reason Kirby sells so many vacuums, is because their customer is NOT in the market for a new vacuum when the salesman arrives at your door. You have no idea what's "out there" in the vac field. Certainly, sitting on a shelf next to the bagless vacuums, the lack of on-board tools, and the very high price ($999) would mean the machines wouldn't sell in enough quantity for the store to make money. And then, who would fix them? Not the Kirby dealer that's for sure. Why should they. If they don't make the profit from the sale, why give away the service?
 
I don't know, Dave ...

... "Given the market these high end vac companies seek to sell to, being absent from mass market retail settings isn't so much of an issue. The high end customer, in part, seeks a bit of exclusivity, and likes that they own something not seen in mass retail."

I disagree. As a "high-end" customer myself, I can tell you that we all shop in the same stores, by and large, as everyone else. The average consumer -- even the "high-end" one -- is in no way as informed as people on this board about vacuums. I live in a city, for example, that has the highest concentration of "high-end" consumers in the country. Most of us don't give much thought to vacuums until we need one. Because, like most New Yorkers, we tend to be over-the-top busy, we'll go through the usual channels to procure a new vacuum: retail stores. Off the top of my head, the only places here in Manhattan that sell vacuums are the handful of dedicated vacuum stores (which you'd never know existed unless they were right in your own neighborhood), Gracious Home, and Bed, Bath, and Beyond. So we go into BB&B and what do we see? Plastivac nightmares, and one or two Miele models. So the "high-end" customer buys the Miele. Why? Because it's all he knows is out there.

Until I started my own search, I didn't even know, for example, that Riccar, Sebo, Rainbow, Filter Queen, and Royal even existed. I knew about Hoover, obviously, and Kirby -- but only because my Grandma had a Kirby, and I personally used the church's Kirby when I helped to clean on Saturdays as a child.

I knew that Aerus existed, but only because I walked past the storefront on 23rd Street probably a million times over the course of 18 years. And yet, never once did I step inside because I never saw anyone else in there, and it looked more like a drop-off repair place more than a retail showroom. So, like millions of others, I just walked on by.

And while it may be true that the "high-end" customer may seek a degree of exclusivity, let's face it, for most people -- even rich people -- a sweeper is just a sweeper. It's an appliance like a toaster; as long as it toasts the bread, who cares what brand it is, or how it was made?

Rich people in Manhattan buy Dysons and Mieles because by and large, they don't know that anything else is out there -- and even more importantly, it's what's right there in front of them.

And by the way, when I bought my Fantom 16 years ago, what I really wanted was a Kirby, but guess what? Like most New Yorkers, I never had the time to schedule a home demonstration; I tried three times with my local distributor that the company put me in touch with, but they only wanted to come during the day -- when I was at work. And no way in hell was I going to blow a vacation day for a vacuum demo.

****

"I do however think that some of these companies can benefit from a bit more visibility - more "storefronts" so more people know who Aerus is, for example."

BINGO.

I just had dinner with my best friend's brother and sister-in-law for the first time a few weeks ago. They told me they lived on the Upper East Side, off 71st Street. I told them I was just up there, test-driving an Aerus. She told me that name sounded familiar. I told her about the dealership right there on First Avenue. Both she and he said they'd been walking past that store for years and had no idea what it was all about.

Aerus, Kirby, Rainbow, Filter Queen ... these "high-end" brands suffer terribly from poor branding. They've been around for decades, and yet no one seems to know about them.

This is why God invented advertising.
 
About repairs ...

... I don't know about other cities, but New York has a fair number of "sew and vac" repair places. I had a place in Brooklyn that did an amazing job of restoring an old sewing machine for me, and serviced my Fantom when it started acting wonky (dirt and debris was leaking out, of all places, near one of the rear wheels). They even provided free pick-up and delivery (music to the ears of us car-free New Yorkers!).
 
For the time I lived in the Wash DC area-Prince George County MD,The at that time Electrolux and Kirby dealers were just that-a store you went to to see the demo and buy the vacuum.In many areas of the DC area at that time-70's-80's DTD salesmen didn't visit your house-bad neighborhoods-or apartment complexes that shut out saelsmen.So you saw your demo at the Lux or Kirby place-there were 2 Kirby places within walking distance of my apt-Didn't have a car then.There was one Lux place.Saw demos at each-liked the Kirby demo the best-esp at the Kirby Center of Suitland,Md.They had all kinds of floor types to try the machine on and furniture-and the demnstrator showed how you could build a birdhouse with the Handi Butler and clean up the mess.Kirby Classic.Now kicking myself for not buying-he was even willing to delivor the machine and me back to my place in his truck.When I lived in the Virginia area-the demos were conducted in your house.It was in downtown DC and MD that you went to the stores.
 
if you have to have a demo...

I would favor the in store demo versus the in home. If you let the salesperson into the house, it's hard to get rid of them. I purchased a Lux canister after testing the model out at the Electrolux/Aerus store. From a negotiating point of view, you are in a better position to bargain given that you can just walk out of the store.

We suffered through a 2.5 hour Rainbow demo that was supposed to take 45 minutes. My wife and I won't make the mistake of ever letting them into the house again.
 
I agree with NYCWriter.....

.....about the advertising.


 


But on the topic of "we all shop the same stores", some of that is a product of market forces, and NOT necessarily a conscious choice. The days of plentiful specialty shops selling premium goods is disappearing, which lands a number of those higher end customers looking for goods in mass market venues. And with that market change comes less qualified and knowledgeable salespeople who know how to sell that high end product, especially when it does appear in a mass market shop.


 


I see it time and time again: When I look for higher end goods, I seek places where salespeople know about the goods they are selling. And that's going the way of the dodo. I can't tell you how many times I have looked for certain goods in retail venues when the salespeople cannot tell me why I should spend double on a given item. I find I have to do the research myself - and when I do I find that I end up knowing more about the product than the salespeople do. I found it true of my HDTV, my shopping for a lawn tractor, even my recent Lux purchases I learned things here that the Lux salespeople couldn't tell me (although they did well in general).


 


In NYC I'm sure you have more options on specialty shops than I do here (a region of about 500K people). But the general trend is more mass market - based more on volume and price - and less specialty/knowledge and quality based sales outlets. A buyer has to educate him/herself, and it's hard for a person to do that with a specific product if they don't even know it exists. So in that sense I agree with the critique of having an advertising problem.


 


I find the old method of door to door to be wayyyyyy behind the times in terms of a basic approach. I DO think it should be an option - there's no better way to prove a machine works than in a potential customer's home environment, and home delivery is a good asset once the relationship is established. But as a basic sales approach, it's behind the curve, as most people have a visceral dislike of DTD solicitors, be it vacuums, insurance, or religions.
smiley-laughing.gif
I think there needs to be advertising and store venues where people can see the machines on their own terms, backed up by people who know how to sell and service the product and customer. A customer purchasing a premium product like Aerus - or any of the other premium vacs - deserves no less.


 


If a customer walks into an Aerus store, driven by an ad they saw, YOU KNOW you have an interested and potential customer. How many doors must be knocked on to find the ones that are truly interested in a vacuum? Now a Lux salesman will explain that they need a vac and don't know it - and might be right about that to a degree - but that's what good advertising does is create a need in the mind of potential customers on a mass basis. Then the legwork Lux salespeople do is more directed instead of a "buckshot" approach of DTD that creates angst more often than success.


 


In the 1950's and 60's - with a large middle class who could afford and justify it and were accustomed to DTD - vs. now where the target customer of a company like Aerus might be the top 15% and generally have a mindset of skepticism - they need to change how they find/target customers.
 

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