Sleeve bearings---"Communist Reports" folks don't much about bearings--The bearings in large generators are SLEEVE---they are lubed with pumpted oil under pressure---and they last---50,60 yrs???And keep in mind those bearings are supporting a rotor that is weighing hundreds of tons and turning at 1800,3600 RPM!They also seal the hydrogen coolant gas inside the generator.Don't worry-the generator won't explode with a pure atmosphere of the hydrogen gas inside it-cools better than air,and quenches arcs better.Back to the bearings-if sleeve bearings are lubed properly---they will OUTLAST sealed ball bearings.And if you have dried sleeve bearings-like on a Hoover Convertable--just dampen them with oil and---they WORK AGAIN-same with other sleeve bearing motors.
Consumer Reports hits a new LOW...(Vacuum Ratings)
- Thread starter georgect
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sptyks
Well-known member
In the latest Comunist Reports Nov. 2014 CR states on page 19:
<a style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 20px;" name="start_26744.299757"></a>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;">"If Price were no object,</p>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;">Kirbys are made to be rebuilt, not replaced. The Kirby Sentria II is weighty-among the heavist tested-and somewhat noisy, but the self-propelled bagged upright moves to the top of our list of picks for it's Superb Cleaning ability."</p>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;">As a Sentria owner, I will have to totally agree on the Superb Cleaning ability.</p>
<a style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 20px;" name="start_26744.299757"></a>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;">"If Price were no object,</p>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;">Kirbys are made to be rebuilt, not replaced. The Kirby Sentria II is weighty-among the heavist tested-and somewhat noisy, but the self-propelled bagged upright moves to the top of our list of picks for it's Superb Cleaning ability."</p>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px;">As a Sentria owner, I will have to totally agree on the Superb Cleaning ability.</p>
floor-a-matic
Well-known member
Any Eureka F & G uprights or Sanitaires been on CR? Which is better?
electromatik
Well-known member
Don't hold your breath on the latest Rainbow being reviewed positively man114... LOL! CR won't rank it any higher. No matter how many improvements they make. CR is focused on price. Their testing methods and results have always been bizarre. For 40 years they ranked the Kirby "below average" in rug cleaning... They used to get copious amounts of hate mail from Kirby owners... Poor Rainbow suffers from clogged HEPA filter when they test them due to the use of talcum powder as test dirt. It reduces their dirt removal ability. Lux machines used to shut off due to reduced suction for the same reason (clogged bag). Real dirt and household use is the best way.
ralph123
Well-known member
Electromatik - I think Rainbow has shot themselves in the foot with a poorly designed power nozzle in the past. They put the belt right down the middle of the power nozzle and had a big dead space for cleaning. The latest model moved the brush to the side. I think the new Rainbow, once tested will see an improved score.
Objective testing requires the rigors of lab measurements. Certainly the tests have room for improvement (i.e. multiple carpet types, variations in dirt composition, etc).
Objective testing requires the rigors of lab measurements. Certainly the tests have room for improvement (i.e. multiple carpet types, variations in dirt composition, etc).
electromatik
Well-known member
That might have something to do with the results, Ralph123. Consumer Reports' testing is still highly flawed. I don't believe they intentionally mislead anyone, but the methods they use are highly suspect. Also, they were not conducted in a valid scientific laboratory. Unless they have changed, their "lab" used to be plastic sheeting taped together and hung in the employee lounge... Hardly what anyone would call rigorous. Talcum powder is also CR's test dirt and is a very poor choice for testing vacuums. Talcum powder isn't part of normal household dirt and affects the machine negatively. If you have talcum powder in your carpet you've got a problem no one else has. LOL! The best testing is performed by the CRI. They use carpet swaths that are the same size and texture, environmentally controlled sealed rooms, and a computer controlled machine that drives the machines back and forth across the carpet at the exact same speed. The carpets are soiled by a machine and the results are measured by fluoroscope. In true scientific fashion, they perform the test 3 times and average the results. This is the most rigorous testing currently available. Rainbow performed very well in their tests.
floor-a-matic
Well-known member
<span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">I'm surprised to NOT see TriStar on CR; however, any TriStar with a Ametek/Lamb 2-stage motor will outclean any other vacs</span>
<span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">How can a Hoover SideWinder (Twist N Vac) be rated so low & a Black & Decker Flex at the top?</span>
<span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">When I perform the test, they are actually done at customer's house/workplace</span>
<span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">How can a Hoover SideWinder (Twist N Vac) be rated so low & a Black & Decker Flex at the top?</span>
<span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">When I perform the test, they are actually done at customer's house/workplace</span>
ralph123
Well-known member
Erik,
So how do you run your tests?
So how do you run your tests?
dysonman1
Well-known member
If the Hoover Air Cordless was second from last in the ratings, what was the 'worst'? I own a Hoover Air Cordless, and while it is made to surface clean a carpet, it does pick up an awful lot of dirt. I agree that it could never get a dirty carpet clean, it will help keep a fairly clean carpet in tip top shape on a daily basis. But you still need a full sized, full power cleaner for once a week cleaning. In my opinion, an AwfulWreck has to be the worst cleaning vacuum on today's market.
man114
Well-known member
Rainbow in CR and other expensive vacs
Electromatik,
Completely forgot that CR uses non wetable stuff like talcum powder in these tests. This is probably why when they tested the D4 in the past that it rated poorly for emissions (or the old 11 amp Fantom without a HEPA for that matter). I can tell you that if used properly the Rainbow's HEPA lasts a long time, because you are not vacuuming up things like talc on a regular basis. Depending on the design of the vacuum this would degrade the performance of plenty of vacuums. Most people don't regularly vacuum that type of dirt. If the argument is made that carpet fresh would do similarly you wouldn't need it anyway since you can use Rainbow's own scents. I do think the new powerhead is a great improvement however and would help carpet cleaning scores regardless.
The other thing is they down rate expensive vacs like Kirbys. I can't see the logic to it. Take a look at the 1980s ratings and pick models people are still using on a regular basis (outside of collectors) other than Kirbys, Rainbows, Electroluxes etc. So if you spent the money back then think of all the vacs you didn't have to purchase in the last 30 years. It makes no sense to me.
Electromatik,
Completely forgot that CR uses non wetable stuff like talcum powder in these tests. This is probably why when they tested the D4 in the past that it rated poorly for emissions (or the old 11 amp Fantom without a HEPA for that matter). I can tell you that if used properly the Rainbow's HEPA lasts a long time, because you are not vacuuming up things like talc on a regular basis. Depending on the design of the vacuum this would degrade the performance of plenty of vacuums. Most people don't regularly vacuum that type of dirt. If the argument is made that carpet fresh would do similarly you wouldn't need it anyway since you can use Rainbow's own scents. I do think the new powerhead is a great improvement however and would help carpet cleaning scores regardless.
The other thing is they down rate expensive vacs like Kirbys. I can't see the logic to it. Take a look at the 1980s ratings and pick models people are still using on a regular basis (outside of collectors) other than Kirbys, Rainbows, Electroluxes etc. So if you spent the money back then think of all the vacs you didn't have to purchase in the last 30 years. It makes no sense to me.
I was at my favorite vacuum shop today. The owner is a licensed Kirby repair shop and has quite a few of them around. Two are out on the sales floor for very reasonable prices. As I was waiting my turn to pay for what I bought I said to the owner "next time I'm in if you aren't too busy maybe you can show me why Kirbys are such great vacuums".
Before the owner could reply the lady in line in front of me paying told me "I own one and they aren't so great" In short she found hers miserable to use. The store owner shook his head in agreement as she spoke. I have never used one, but moving them out from their displays to examine them I can't get past their weight and general clumsy bulkiness, and from prior experience avoid soft bagged uprights, even if they have a paper bag inside. I have passed up thrift store Kirbys in the $10 - $20 range more than once.
To be brutally honest I think people who buy such expensive vacuums feel they have to defend spending so much money on a common household item. Btw, I see the same dysfunctional justifications of buying expensive automobiles. They aren't worth the price. Maybe C-R sees this and offends those who popped for the high priced spread. They are making recommendations for normal consumers with limited household budgets, not vacuum collectors.
Before the owner could reply the lady in line in front of me paying told me "I own one and they aren't so great" In short she found hers miserable to use. The store owner shook his head in agreement as she spoke. I have never used one, but moving them out from their displays to examine them I can't get past their weight and general clumsy bulkiness, and from prior experience avoid soft bagged uprights, even if they have a paper bag inside. I have passed up thrift store Kirbys in the $10 - $20 range more than once.
To be brutally honest I think people who buy such expensive vacuums feel they have to defend spending so much money on a common household item. Btw, I see the same dysfunctional justifications of buying expensive automobiles. They aren't worth the price. Maybe C-R sees this and offends those who popped for the high priced spread. They are making recommendations for normal consumers with limited household budgets, not vacuum collectors.
kirbyloverdan
Well-known member
Max I am a Kirby LOVER and
EXPENSIVE German automobile enthusiast & owner of 3 expensive (in your mind) autos and own over 20 NIB Kirby's plus many more I personally use daily and take offence to your nasty uneducated remarks .
Please learn to respect fellow members as this is not a site to bash people and their vacuum and automobile purchases !!!
Dan
EXPENSIVE German automobile enthusiast & owner of 3 expensive (in your mind) autos and own over 20 NIB Kirby's plus many more I personally use daily and take offence to your nasty uneducated remarks .
Please learn to respect fellow members as this is not a site to bash people and their vacuum and automobile purchases !!!
Dan
marks_here
Well-known member
Things that make ya go hmmmmmm I wonder......
I own all of the Kirby "G" series vacuums and don't find them "clumsy" at all.Their Tech drive makes a diffrence.Suggest you TRY a Kirby before knocking it!And older 500 Kirbys are lighter in weight and easy to push and maneuver.Again TRY the machine!!!
Re CR
Cr very rarely got it right, Comparing a Hoover 150 with a GE of the same vintage would be like comparing a Falcom with a Town Car!..they always rated a Kirby as a poor rug cleaner, and they said he Preco air driven power brush was wonderful!!LOL..They also said for many years, that a Rexair/Rainbow was a dangerous machine because of the shock hazard...it goes on and on....they did however say in the 50s that the Apex Strato Cleaner had the highest suction ever tested...that was a true statement...
Cr very rarely got it right, Comparing a Hoover 150 with a GE of the same vintage would be like comparing a Falcom with a Town Car!..they always rated a Kirby as a poor rug cleaner, and they said he Preco air driven power brush was wonderful!!LOL..They also said for many years, that a Rexair/Rainbow was a dangerous machine because of the shock hazard...it goes on and on....they did however say in the 50s that the Apex Strato Cleaner had the highest suction ever tested...that was a true statement...
The comment on sleeve bearings is comparing apples to oranges. Those big industrial sleeve bearings mentioned above have full flow lubrication going to them to cool, lube and keep the bearing material clean. A sleeve bearing in a vacuum motor lives in heat and dirt, heat and the lubricant is never changed and does not circulate When the lube is used up and breaks down, as any lubricant will, there is nothing left to support the shaft and wear accelerates. Sleeve bearings in a small universal motor like a vacuum uses is a cost cutting kludge rightly condemned by C-R.
I will also bet those big industrial sleeve bearings are only supporting a vertically oriented shaft. If the shaft is on it's side a sleeve bearing will be chewed down on the low side very quickly.
I will also bet those big industrial sleeve bearings are only supporting a vertically oriented shaft. If the shaft is on it's side a sleeve bearing will be chewed down on the low side very quickly.
kirbyloverdan
Well-known member
Wow Metaphor aka Desert tortoise
Why the name change ?
Dan
Why the name change ?
Dan
My apologies to upset you Kirbyloverdan. Sincerely. I didn't mean to get you mad.
I have had expensive Euro cars and bikes too. Over time I have come to regard all of that kind of thing as over priced for what you get. BMW charges a five figure premium for an M car over what they charge for the standard version. Same thing with their bikes, the R1200 is two grand more dear than the R850 version of the same bike. They both have the same parts count and are assembled on the same line using the same labor and the same number of assembly steps. The only differences are bore size and the mapping of the ECM, neither of which has any affect on manufacturing cost. It is every bit as expensive (or cheap) a bike to build as the smaller displacement model but you are charged two grand more for the 1200. Why? Image. You have a "bigger", even if the actual dimensions of the two bikes are identical, that you can thump your chest about so you are willing to pay more for it. The extra power doesn't get you down the road faster (no, it really doesn't) but people willingly pop the extra two grand so they can brag about their bike. It's silly to me. Same with their M series cars. That M series car doesn't cost ten or twenty grand more to build than the more pedestrian model. Ditto AMG Mercedes. The material costs are not ten grand different. The number of assembly steps are about the same. The bodies are basically identical. Most of that cost premium is pure profit for BMW or Mercedes and not justified by costlier materials and/or more assembly steps. It took me decades of over paying for things to finally figure this out. No more. You get older and money starts to matter.
It is the same thing with any high end product. The seller sells "exclusivity" and uses this as a form of monopoly pricing. But don't kid yourself that these products are necessarily worth their high price. I maintain that often they are not. Sellers are out to make a buck. Just because it is expensive doesn't mean it's good. But we see how offended those who paid the price get when someone questions whether the resulting quality justifies the high price. There is an interesting psychology in this and the reactions of people when you question spending such large sums for household goods that have a certain image attached are something I am fascinated with. People get emotionally attached to something they spent a bunch of money on, justified or not. We have seen this right here.
I have had expensive Euro cars and bikes too. Over time I have come to regard all of that kind of thing as over priced for what you get. BMW charges a five figure premium for an M car over what they charge for the standard version. Same thing with their bikes, the R1200 is two grand more dear than the R850 version of the same bike. They both have the same parts count and are assembled on the same line using the same labor and the same number of assembly steps. The only differences are bore size and the mapping of the ECM, neither of which has any affect on manufacturing cost. It is every bit as expensive (or cheap) a bike to build as the smaller displacement model but you are charged two grand more for the 1200. Why? Image. You have a "bigger", even if the actual dimensions of the two bikes are identical, that you can thump your chest about so you are willing to pay more for it. The extra power doesn't get you down the road faster (no, it really doesn't) but people willingly pop the extra two grand so they can brag about their bike. It's silly to me. Same with their M series cars. That M series car doesn't cost ten or twenty grand more to build than the more pedestrian model. Ditto AMG Mercedes. The material costs are not ten grand different. The number of assembly steps are about the same. The bodies are basically identical. Most of that cost premium is pure profit for BMW or Mercedes and not justified by costlier materials and/or more assembly steps. It took me decades of over paying for things to finally figure this out. No more. You get older and money starts to matter.
It is the same thing with any high end product. The seller sells "exclusivity" and uses this as a form of monopoly pricing. But don't kid yourself that these products are necessarily worth their high price. I maintain that often they are not. Sellers are out to make a buck. Just because it is expensive doesn't mean it's good. But we see how offended those who paid the price get when someone questions whether the resulting quality justifies the high price. There is an interesting psychology in this and the reactions of people when you question spending such large sums for household goods that have a certain image attached are something I am fascinated with. People get emotionally attached to something they spent a bunch of money on, justified or not. We have seen this right here.
Btw, I got bitten right here too believing the received wisdom of the senior posters when I was stalking this site earlier. My upright was a, uh, shall we say budget Hoover pushing two decades old. Based on what people were saying here I decided to pop for a high end German upright. It's a beautiful machine. Excellent materials and workmanship. Ought to last decades. Big suction and airflow. Everyone says such good things about it. The only problem is it bogs down in my home's deep pile carpet and shuts off. Querying the manufacturer they told me that deep carpet is a limitation for their vacuums with no remedy and no work around. So sorry. So all I can use it on is the indoor/outdoor carpet of the garage. Many hundreds of my hard earned wasted. The Hoover is nasty but has no problems with my home's deep carpet. The brand new high end euro vac gets condemned to garage duty and the decades old cheap Hoover plastivac soldiers on inside the home. So, yes, I have learned to question the efficacy of the claims made here and other websites regarding the supposed superiority of high end products. I finally went out and bought a modern canister, open box stock at a very low price (cuz the Eurovac cleaned my wallet even if it can't clean my carpet), for inside the home. It isn't ideal either but better than a tired old Hoover. At least I got value for money out of the Hoover.
sebo_fan
Well-known member
And yet, with all your experience, you didn't bother sticking with the previous Kenmore brand that your previous posts on here continually promoted?
Im glad you have returned - Im still waiting to see how easy it it to put a PN onto a canister vacuum. Im waiting for you to show me, with eagerness.
Im glad you have returned - Im still waiting to see how easy it it to put a PN onto a canister vacuum. Im waiting for you to show me, with eagerness.
