The Fault Of The TTi Hoover Products

[panasonicvac]

I was impressed when I first saw this video of just how well the filter on the Patriot performs. However, just by how much the Patriot costs and for replacing the filters, by doing the math I'd end up saving more by having a central vac instead. And like what Reggie pointed out, I'd rather have a vacuum where I wouldn't be sniffing in the dust and/or odors coming out of a portable.

 

[centralsweeper63]

Re-useable cloth bags lose power, paper a little bit and cloth barely any. That is what I have found.

 

[cheesewonton]

I was impressed when I first saw this video of just how well the filter on the Patriot performs. However, just by how much the Patriot costs and for replacing the filters, by doing the math I'd end up saving more by having a central vac instead. And like what Reggie pointed out, I'd rather have a vacuum where I wouldn't be sniffing in the dust and/or odors coming out of a portable.

What surprises me is that on those older Patriots like the one depicted in the smoke test the rear wheels are on a steel axle that goes right through the motor compartment. One would expect that axle to be a source of a significant air leak but the axle is apparently very well sealed. The newer models with six wheels do not have an axle going through the motor compartment. The four casters fit into notches in the body but do not penetrate the outer shell. The axle for the center wheels goes through the bag chamber instead of the motor compartment.

Kind of a heart breaker for the Miele fans. Incidentally when Vacuum Wars conducted the same smoke test on the Hoover Hushtone no smoke came out anywhere. Hoover better filtered than a Miele? Ooooooh Nooooooo. Say it ain't so.

 

[centralsweeper63]

I would imagine they have really good bearings.

 

[centralsweeper63]

I am a bit suspicious that in the smoke that video they took out the bags or filters. It is like they modified the machines being tested. I may well be wrong though.

 

[amtraksebo1997]

I wouldn't say suction loss is a lie. The paper bags on conventional vacuums did clog, which resulted in cleaning performance degrading, which would mean that the deeply embedded dirt wouldn't get picked up, with the worst case scenario being said dirt would be ground into the carpet. My Dyson Ball Animal 3 is just about 2 years old, and its suction is still just as strong as it was when I vacuumed with it for the first time, so that tells me that the cyclones are doing their job pretty well.

Okay, I probably should've worded my claims better. Vacuums will lose their suction if not properly maintained. HOWEVER, this fact was heavily twisted and skewed to make it out as a bigger problem than it actually is by Shark and Dyson. From my experience, this only occurs when the bag on a machine is almost completely full, such as on my Hoover Windtunnel Supreme and Dirt Devil Featherlite. Even then, it's so subtle, it's almost unnoticeable. Thanks to this skewing, now we have slop machines that are more maintenance heavy for little returns.

As for cyclones, forget about them. They shouldn't be overly relied on for filtration. Dust will still get on your pre-motor filters, and possibly into the motors.

 

[amtraksebo1997]

What surprises me is that on those older Patriots like the one depicted in the smoke test the rear wheels are on a steel axle that goes right through the motor compartment. One would expect that axle to be a source of a significant air leak but the axle is apparently very well sealed. The newer models with six wheels do not have an axle going through the motor compartment. The four casters fit into notches in the body but do not penetrate the outer shell. The axle for the center wheels goes through the bag chamber instead of the motor compartment.

Kind of a heart breaker for the Miele fans. Incidentally when Vacuum Wars conducted the same smoke test on the Hoover Hushtone no smoke came out anywhere. Hoover better filtered than a Miele? Ooooooh Nooooooo. Say it ain't so.

The smoke test is very good rule-of-thumb test to see how good a vac performs. If you can see the smoke coming out of the exhaust of a machine, then it's doing a lousy job. If you can't, then it's at least filtering down to 5 microns.

 

[centralsweeper63]

My Windsor Smartvac XP15 has a re-useable shake-out bag, it is a brick and stills sucks. It only stops working properly or loses much suction when it is filled into the tube.

 

[huskyvacs]

Well, if you want a truly great vacuum that is even better than a Sebo for a reasonable cost, you need crowdfunding, a factory, workers, design skills and some time.

And then said company will take 5+ years to attain the money, make a few dozen models, then go bankrupt and mismanage it all. ahem..ahem...Lupe...

 

[rlsellman21]

It isn't so much a case of the bag material clogging as the reduction in the size of the air path as the bag fills. In most bagged vacuums the bag sits against the sides of the bag chamber. As the bag fills airflow is obstructed. If you can suspend the bag off the sides you don't loose airflow. Look at the expander cages used in several Panasonic canister models and uprights ( MC-CG 885, 887, 983, 985, 917, 937, 955, 957, MC-UG773, 775, 787 with their "Opti-Flow" chamber ) as well as the expander cages used in the Kenmore Intuition and Elite canister models to see what I am talking about.

I have been fooling around with a home made expander cage in an old old old Kenmore from 1982 that very much lost airflow as the bag filled. These have the motor sitting vertically with the fan facing up into the bag chamber underneath a big rectangular "filter" ( 1/16 inch thin open cell foam, basically useless as a filter) housing. The bag as it fills presses against the underside and sides of the lid blocking airflow as dirt takes up the airspace. With the expander cage I have made the bag is suspended away from the sides, top of the bag chamber and off the side of the filter housing. This gives the air a nice unobstructed path from the hose opening, over the top of the bag to the motor. The dirt drops out and falls to the bottom and rear of the bag. Now I fill the bag with no loss of airflow. Same thing by different means with my Metrovac. It is a round steel tube with a suction motor in the back. There is an inner cloth bag the disposable dust bag fits into. The cloth bag acts like an expander cage suspending the bag off the walls of the vacuum and to my great surprise ( considering it is such and old fashioned design ) it too doesn't see to loose airflow as the bag fills.

I've been wondering about how Kenmore's Power Flow feature worked. Their claim about it suggests no loss of suction, even though they don't directly say that.

 

[centralsweeper63]

It works from my experience, some 2010s Electrolux models had this feature.

 

[cheesewonton]

I've been wondering about how Kenmore's Power Flow feature worked. Their claim about it suggests no loss of suction, even though they don't directly say that.

Yes, exactly. In fact this is what I have been playing around with modifying to fit my older Kenmore. It really does work as advertised. In Panasonic vacuums the same thing was called Opti-Flow.

 

[cheesewonton]

It works from my experience, some 2010s Electrolux models had this feature.

Huh? Which ones?

 

[centralsweeper63]

The Jet-Maxx. Keep going and it goes to the 2000s.

https://www.electrolux.co.nz/support/

 

[cheesewonton]

Okay, I probably should've worded my claims better. Vacuums will lose their suction if not properly maintained. HOWEVER, this fact was heavily twisted and skewed to make it out as a bigger problem than it actually is by Shark and Dyson. From my experience, this only occurs when the bag on a machine is almost completely full, such as on my Hoover Windtunnel Supreme and Dirt Devil Featherlite. Even then, it's so subtle, it's almost unnoticeable. Thanks to this skewing, now we have slop machines that are more maintenance heavy for little returns.

As for cyclones, forget about them. They shouldn't be overly relied on for filtration. Dust will still get on your pre-motor filters, and possibly into the motors.

On my several Sebos the loss of airflow as the bag fills is very noticeable. I often, especially with the C3.1 but also with my 370, change the bag before it's stuffed full because the loss of airflow ( not suction but airflow ) is so acute. Same with many Kenmore, Panasonic, Eureka, Tristar and other brands I have in my collection. Hard floor attachments get quieter and quieter as the bag fills. Not good.

With the Sebo 370 the airflow loss is noticeable using the hose and hard floor brush. You don't notice it as much using it as an upright because the brush roll and drive motor mask the sound of the air hissing through the nozzle. When you use the hose the brush roll is shut off and you can really hear the difference in airflow as the bag fills.

 

[centralsweeper63]

You can aggressively tap the bag walls multiple times, fixes it amazingly well.

 

[cheesewonton]

You can aggressively tap the bag walls multiple times, fixes it amazingly well.

My Kenmore Sears Best 4.1 used to suffer significant airflow loss as the bag filled. Adding my home made expander cage solved it. No need to open the lid and shake the bag, which sometimes causes dust to blow out the top. I can fill it completely and there is no airflow reduction until the bag backs up into the hose. Now I have to do something about the dead bag full light, the sensor for which has been out of production for ages.

 

[centralsweeper63]

It likely just doesn't fire because of your mods, I may well be wrong though.

 

[cheesewonton]

It likely just doesn't fire because of your mods, I may well be wrong though.

I put my hand over the end of the hose and that should make it light, but it doesn't. Either the sensor or the light are shot.

 

[huskyvacs]

I put my hand over the end of the hose and that should make it light, but it doesn't. Either the sensor or the light are shot.

This is a problem that plagues many Electrolux vacuums all the time. For Electrolux they use a series of tiny short rubber tubes to regulate air pressure and monitor air passing through. If the airflow stops it trips the resistor that lights the light. I don;t know exactly how it works, but that's what I can gather. Someone should make a whole explanation on just how that works, would be a interesting video. But usually the light not coming on is due to improper suction settings on the cleaner or maybe a stuck part, or the bulb burned out unknowingly.

On modern uprights they will use something like a internal microphone connected to the main board, or a piston and a spring that floats with air passing through it. It could incorporate the same thing into a illumination light with just a light bulb and a couple of pressure microswitches. Would all depend on the vacuum.

 

[cheesewonton]

This is a problem that plagues many Electrolux vacuums all the time. For Electrolux they use a series of tiny short rubber tubes to regulate air pressure and monitor air passing through. If the airflow stops it trips the resistor that lights the light. I don;t know exactly how it works, but that's what I can gather. Someone should make a whole explanation on just how that works, would be a interesting video. But usually the light not coming on is due to improper suction settings on the cleaner or maybe a stuck part, or the bulb burned out unknowingly.

On modern uprights they will use something like a internal microphone connected to the main board, or a piston and a spring that floats with air passing through it. It could incorporate the same thing into a illumination light with just a light bulb and a couple of pressure microswitches. Would all depend on the vacuum.

Kenmore uses a simple vacuum sensor to complete a circuit to the bag full warning light. When the vacuum drops to a specified level the contacts close and the light illuminates. Kenmore still uses this system, but the sensor is different and the bulb is integrated into the sensor. Just not something I can back fit to the old Kenny so I have to find a good used vintage one.