Home air quality rants

[tekjunkie28]

I have been on this website for about 2 years I believe. I don't read it everyday but I try to stop by once a week or so. I also am by no means a professional HVAC person but have worked along side them and work in maintenance and construction my whole life. As a hobby/part time job I am really into energy efficiency and have advised people on what to do about their situations and health concerns when it comes to IAQ and HVAC equipment.
I see everyone talking about HEPA and filtration of the air and vacuums spewing dust. I have to say that if your concerned about indoor air quality then a vacuum IS on the list of not the top of it. When you vacuum then you are only really cleaning the air going through the vacuum and depending on which vacuum you are using it may be less clean then what you think. I would say that vacuum filtration should only be a concern where the vacuum is truly blowing out dust. If that's the case then I would just trash it unless its a vintage or heirloom item. AFAIK any modern vacuum filters well enough and once your done vacuuming the IAQ is rather quickly going to go back to what it was previously.

How many of you are actually concerned with IAQ?


I'm sure that move of use here that enjoy their vacuums as a hobby is mechanically geared and knows what I am talking about but for the general public most have no clue. I just want everyone to have no misconceptions of air filtration. When you vacuum you should be trying to clean the home and pick up everything possible that is stuck in our carpets. After that it is the duty of the HVAC unit and house exhaust fans to clean the air. HEPA filtration is over rated on vacuums unless you have a water filtration machine. I only say that because of the stories I have heard and the first hand evidence I observed after using my rainbow for just a few days. I am also going to say that I think we are over cleaning our homes with hepa. I remember the 1st vacuum I bought for myself. It was a Dyson. Probably a DC17 or something and not long after that I became allergic to pollen and dust. Not bad but more so then ever before and to this day I still am but not bad and not enough to complain about. The theory I have is that the Dyson filtered well and for some reason me being exposed to less dust and allergens affected my immune system to a point where when I was exposed to a higher amount of allergen that I got symptoms.

I would like to know others thoughts and experiences. I have more to say on this but I shall post later.

 

[mikanic]

That's pretty interesting!

When you mentioned water filtration, the Rainbow SE went right into my head. If you watch HooverLux on YouTube, there is a video on that channel about the Rainbow SE UK version being used in a full house cleaning process. And from what I've seen, there are no bags. All the dirt ends up where the water is, and to avoid smells you could put in fabric softener (2 drops possibly).

Talking about air filtration, a lot of Shark vacuum cleaners have LOTS of filters, from a metal mesh, to a sponge and shroud, to a felt layer, to the HEPA filter that is located at the exhaust.

When you talked about cleaners blowing out dust, a good example of a cleaner that does just that is the Goblin upright that you often see in the ASDA shop in the UK.

If your home is very clean, however, apparently it can cause allergies. But yes, breathing in LOTS of dust is bad. Dunno if these are available in your area, but cleaners that have A ratings for anti-dust emissions are the Numatic Henry Allergy, the Miele Dynamic U1 Allergy Powerline, and a lot of Shark vacuum cleaners. You'll obviously have Shark cleaners in your area.

Once again, pretty interesting say from you!

 

[tekjunkie28]

I wouldn't say breathing in lots of dust is bad. Sure its probably not "good" for you but our bodies have natural ways of stopping that. It's the smallest of particles that are bad.

I assume the smallest of particles is odor. Is odor even a particle or is odor the airborne particles? Probably both. They say Rainbows stop odors, well thats a lie somewhat. Suck up some popcorn and see how bad it smells.

As for HVAC you can get a media filter that is about 4-5" thick. Honeywell makes a filter that will fit into a 1" filter rack that is a media filter. That is the best bet. NEVER use anything more then a poly filter in a 1" filter rack. Don't use those 3M filter EVER. I just use the rock catchers in mine because my custom build return air filter box doesnt allow me to use the Honeywell filter.

 

[gregvacs28]

said it before.....

 


 


If a person is concerned about indoor air quality = bagged VENTED Central Vacuum system (CV), preferably with a flow-thru motor.


 


With that, one doesn't need special, expensive bags. 


You don't have to worry about cleaning a ridiculous dirt bucket or filter. 


You don't have to worry about what percent of air is being filtered because ALL of it is being expelled so it's 100% clean air.


 


Even if one lives in a rented dwelling where they can't install the CV permanently, it can be vented out a window.  Your health is worth it.  


 


 

[this post was last edited: 11/6/2018-19:53]

 

[myles_v]

It's interesting that you believe HEPA filtration vacuum cleaners have negative affects on long term health because of how clean they leave the air, but you also seem to suggest using whole home air filtration in HVAC systems. If anything I could see the HVAC filtration having a negative long term affect since they're more effective at maintaining the IAQ, since it seems like you think overly clean air causes allergies.

I think that some of the <$100 bagless vacuums on the market right now filter the air poorly enough to be a concern. I haven't used many current machines in that price range lately, but I know that as of just a couple of years ago Bissell and Dirt Devil machines tended to blow quite a bit of dust past the filters. Sharks and most Hoovers seem to be decent, however. I think that HEPA is just a marketing gimmick on many budget machines, the machine as a whole often lacks seals needed to effectively filter all of the air that passes through the machine so you'll often see them labelled as having filters made with HEPA media rather than just saying HEPA.

I believe vacuums need to filter very well in order to be effective, just for the fact that it makes no sense to pick up dirt that's deep inside of carpeting just to spew it back into the air. The smallest particles are the ones that are most likely to become lodged in your lungs, your body is able to maintain itself but it has a harder time dealing with the smallest of the particles. I once read that the best air cleaner you can have is a nice large rug that's properly maintained; this is because carpeting traps all of the dust from the air, unlike hard flooring. Sure, there isn't a huge amount of air passing through a vacuum cleaner relative to an HVAC system, but there's a huge amount of dust entering the machine that needs to be trapped.


I am genuinely concerned about IAQ and I am aware that a good-filtering vacuum cleaner is only one small piece of the puzzle. I think that fresh air intake should be a larger concern than particle collection, which is something that can be aided by a central vacuum system exhausted to the outdoors. I'm also a fan of heat recovery ventilators, they exchange indoor air with outdoor air but they're designed to transfer the heat energy from the indoor air that's being exhausted to the outdoor air that's being brought in. This is an interesting topic for me, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[kirbysthebest]

Question about Central vacs

Though I have no problem with the premise the central vac exhausted outside will lessen emissions back into the air. Where I question is re-infiltration. If you are exhausting 180 CFM of air, because nature abhors a vacuum, it has to be replaced from somewhere. So how are you insuring the replacement air coming through cracks, windows, under doors, and chimney pipes is as clean or cleaner than the air you just exhausted?

 

[gregvacs28]

re-infiltration

That is a very good and broad concern, Harley. 


 


If one's going to be concerned about the air exhausted when vacuuming with a vented CV, they would also be concerned about air exhausted when: using  a vented clothes dryer, vented bathroom exhaust fan, vented kitchen exhaust fan, or a gas burning appliance (like a water heater) that uses indoor air for combustion, etc.


 


In general, studies have been done that show indoor air quality is much worse than outdoor air.  


This is given to many factors including outgassing of numerous products we are likely to have in our homes, better quality sealed construction that blocks fresh air from coming in, and direct things we may be doing like smoking, cooking smells, pet dander, etc.  


 


With those in mind, when we use any of these other applications/appliances, can a person clarify where the air is coming from that's being displaced?


 


More often furnaces and water heaters that burn gas, are coming with input tubing that allows for the appliance to use outdoor air for combustion.  That's ideal.


 


Rangehoods, bath fans,  clothes dryers?   Now I've yet to see a clothes dryer that has an intake duct and features a sealed cabinet so that it would only use exterior air for combustion and recirculation.  It is a great idea because dryers exhaust a tremendous amount of air and can run hours at a time.  


 


Newer construction that has gas burning appliances in the utility room is likely to have a 6" or 8" fresh air intake hood and a stretch of insulated ducting leading to the general area of the appliances.  It's kind of sloppy but...... it's good.


 


So yeah, it's a good concern...... and the battle between wanting to seal our homes for comfort and energy savings also needs to be balanced with the very need for fresh air.  


 


One things for sure: carpeting or floor surfaces in general off-gas.  They also collect whatever gravity pulls down in the room.  Personally, I don't want either the off-gassing or any of the fine dust particles of what ever is picked up when vacuuming,  exhausted into my living space.  


 


Using a VENTED CV not only gets rid of those threats 100%, it also pulls in fresh air from outside...... in some way.


 


Using a non vented or standard vacuum doesn't exhaust or trap off-gassing, it stirs it up. 


It doesn't trap 100% of dust, it can literally stir up more, and in the case of hand held vacuums, literally spew the dust/debri in your face. 


They also do not bring in any fresh air from outside.  Zero


 


 

 

[tekjunkie28]

Hepa on vacuums its generally bad. Bad for suction power but good for general health to an extent. I think there is a lot of people right on the verge of becoming allergic to certain things. This is my experience with never having a hepa vacuum and then suddenly having one and relatively quickly became allergic to dust/pollen.

Whole home filtration is typically not hepa but can come close or surpass it with additional media or type of filtration. If you house is sealed up relatively tight then your home alone will act as a sort of filter with infiltration of air. I do think UV lamps in duct work is okay as long as it's safe. Ozone can be a harmful gas but hepa doesn't filter that out. You should also be looking into mechanical ventilation if your home is really tight.
When I referred to whole home I should have said that I like to see dust filtration up to Merv 6 or so which is probably too restrictive for the majority of AC installs. I think a little pollen and being exposed to germs is good. It is proven to build immunity in kids. All this changes if you have a disease that negatively impacts your immune system. Then by all means filter out everything you can.

@kirbysthebest You are thinking on the right track but remember that the air outside is probably already a lot cleaner then the air inside unless you live in LA or someplace like that. Also A lot of the chemicals in the air and gaseous like radon and HEPA has no effect on that.

@gregvacs28 Absolutely correct.

Another concern about all this is the additional heating or cooling of that air you are bring in also. In florida and using a central vac might be a issue if you like to vacuum everyday.

 

[gregvacs28]

It would probably be ideal if all appliances came with an outside air duct.  This would include bath fans, range hoods, CVs, dryers, gas fireplaces, etc. 


 


 


Another option- to have a 8" fresh air intake with an electric damper that would only open when any of the mentioned appliances activate it.  A low voltage relay system could make that happen.  Plus, one could put a hepa filter on that fresh air intake so all incoming air is clean.

 

[tseg]

Before I got my HEPA vacuum I would always get stuffy/sniffly when I would go to bed the evening of vacuuming, sometimes even when I was still vacuuming. With my Miele I get no such side-effect. Because my vacuum is so awesome and does not make me sniffly I vacuum much more which keeps the detritus down even more in my home. The question is, is poor air quality the cause or the symptom? It is pretty obvious it is the symptom. The more those micro-allergic bits stay in the bag the less they are in "the wild". A non-HEPA vacuum filter is a sieve to bits less than x microns and smaller and they just accumulate over time unless the HVAC system is removing them. If the HVAC system is also not HEPA those allergic x microns and smaller bits keep getting circulated and accumulating over months and years. I disagree that the vacuum cannot play a leading role in controlling air quality.

 

[dysonman1]

There is another way to look at air 'quality' inside the home. For decades, manufacturers like HOOVER didn't care a thing about filtration. The first few models of Hoovers used two bags, one inside the other, with one made of cheesecloth and one of satin. The user had to clean the bags outside. Air-Way was the first to care about filtration - they invented and perfected the disposable bag made of 14 layers of cellulose. Rexair (Rainbow) wasn't invented for filtration either - it was invented to be a machine that maintained airflow always. The 'filtration' aspect of using water was an added feature that came after the invention of the machine. People kept their windows open 9 months of the year (air conditioning hadn't been invented yet). No one died from dust in the air.

Today, I believe a lot of the 'hype' of HEPA filtration is "Made Up"! There's big money in Hepa filters (Miele's filter is $50 once a year).

I feel that most vacuums today are not running long enough to really contribute to any significant amount of dust in the air. I would use a 1926 Hoover 700 with the cloth bag, and still feel my house was clean after. I would just hate emptying it.

With that said, I do have a central vacuum system in my house, VENTED outside because it's a Vacuflo. I didn't have it installed because I was concerned about air quality - I had it installed because it's so powerful the windows bow inwards when I turn it on (not really). I actually like it because I can't smell last week's dog hair and dirt when I use it.

I love my attic fan too, but talk about bringing in the dust.

 

[tekjunkie28]

@dysonman1 I removed my attic fan. Unless you have the conditioned space completely sealed off from the attic then the attic fan is pulling out conditioned air and raising your electric bill. There was a article that I read that talked about HEPA filters and what got them started into being money makers. 25% of the article was how they are needed for some reasons and the other 75% was why you don't need them, the issues they cause and other options which cost less over time.

Also if you vacuum bag can filter down to 3 microns then then that stops mold. Most mold and pollen particles are 100-90nm.

This brings up another aspect. I never had allergies when I was a kid and my grandma never had central air or even a vacuum with a filter. The house was large and had 3 window unit. One in the 2nd living room and 1 in each bedroom. The 'office' didnt have any AC at all and when I was gaming on the pc it got rather hot but i never complained. She used a Kirby heritage (red bag) and I believe it was a kenmore canister. It was the square one with the wood grain lid and the on/off petal in the from. She used it on almost everything. She did have a oil furnace but it used a fiberglass filter and as far and I can remember that house was pretty much dust free but she never dusted. She didnt sweep or mop either that I remember, just used that canister.

@ gregvacs28 They have what you are talking about and they are AWESOME. Also you could use an HRV or ERV depending on where you live. Each of these have option for filters rating as high as hospital grade.

 

[jheissjr]

HVAC filters

tekjunkie28 - You mention as for HVAC you can get a media filter that is about 4-5" thick. Honeywell makes a filter that will fit into a 1" filter rack that is a media filter. That is the best bet. NEVER use anything more then a poly filter in a 1" filter rack. Don't use those 3M filter EVER. I just use the rock catchers in mine because my custom build return air filter box doesnt allow me to use the Honeywell filter.

What are your thoughts on brands of better filters? Honeywell is good? Are MERV 7 and higher filters not recommended? Which 3M filters are you talking about, is 3M low quality?

 

[rivstg1]

"Don't use those 3M filter EVER" . why in the world would you say this? I bought mine at Costco....and from my experience....they don't sell crap usually on that type of thing. 3m is known as a good company . ????

 

[tekjunkie28]

3M filters are way too restrictive for the air unit. HVAC systems are shitty designed at best unless you have a Manual J, D, and S, performed at minimum. These are tested and designs performed by the best HVAC companies to make sure the units you get are the best for the home and your wallet. Its very difficult to find a company that will do an honest test and not just throw in whatever was used before. If you want to use your HVAC system to filter out anything more then dust them go with a media filter that is 4-5". They make ones that fit one inch filter grills and you can have your duct work modified you your 1" slit is located on or next to the unit. *DISCLAIMER- when we say "3M filters" what I mean is those AND almost any pleated 1" filter*

3M are good filters but no system is designed to have to pull that much static pressure. They lower your efficiency and potentially damage the unit by sludging the compressor. That is when liquid coolant gets back to the compressor which will eventually cause it to die and possible burnout. Burned out compressors will trash the whole system and eventually cost you more money.

If you have to use the 3M filters then change them every month and find a really good HVAC guy to come out and do a static pressure test of the system to see if you can use those. Also if the return duct is in the attic and the filter is placed in the ceiling like in my home the restrictiveness of the filter will cause the unit to pull in more attic air which is extremely dirty and usually much colder or warmer that your living space air. If you have a new high efficiency gas furnace then the more restrictive filters are even dangerous. They will eventually cause issues with the heat exchanger which could lead to CO2 being released. These new high efficiency head exchangers are extremely thin but effective. You need to have the correct amount of air flow moving across them to allow them to do their job and not burn a whole in them. If you unit is equipped with a ECM motor then that motor will ramp up the the speed it needs to but if the pressures are too high they will burn themselves out.

Another thing that people don't realize is that these filters are rated at a certain Feet per minute / particle capture. A lot of times you will find that the return filter size is already too small for the unit. So when you use the 3m filters they are not even performing at there rated filtration rate because the air going through them is moving too fast.

The rule of thumb (and this is the only time you will use a rule of thumb in HVAC0) is that if the filter cost more then a few dollars then its too restrictive. If you are buying those $7+ pleated 1" filters then you may as well just pay for the duct work to be redesigned if need be to accommodate a media filter. You typically only replace them once every 6 months to a year and you will easily save money.

As for filter brands the short answer is no. One brand isn't better then the other, they are pretty much all the same. The ONLY reason a unit has filters is to protect the unit NOT you. Most units should be able to handle a poly filter and they will filter out most dust and pollen. They can be purchased at an HVAC supply house and are cheap. I personally use the fiberglass filters and notice a HUGE improvement on airflow which will extend the live of my unit.

As for IAQ and Hepa bags and filters on vacuum cleaners... The worst or most harmful compounds found in homes will be VOCs and they are not filtered out. They are only removed with air exchanges or activated charcoal.

If you are wondering how I know then I eat sleep and breath HVAC stuff and have been working around it for over 15 years. Currently I work on lasers and maintain the exhaust system on those which is quite nasty stuff. Along with that I ensure all employees safety and am also a professional member over at hvac-talk.com

 

[kloveland]

I often thought those thick HEPA filters looked too restrictive to me. I use the plain fiberglass filters as well. I have an older unit and will eventually have the ductwork replaced in my home because it runs underneath a concrete slab. Metal ductwork in the ground wasn’t a good idea to begin with. They must have thought it was a good idea in the late 60’s when my home was built. They did somethings well back then and others not so much. That was 51 years ago!

Filters are made to protect the unit not you! I totally agree. You don’t need an expensive Hepa filter to keep dust out of the blower, A frame and furnace. I haven’t totally bought into the Hepa hype. For me personally it’s just another sales pitch to sell the consumer on a new vacuum cleaner or furnace filter.

 

[tekjunkie28]

Well just don't put duct in unconditioned space and make sure its properly sized. 85% or the efficiency of the unit comes from the install, not the unit itself. Have a load calculation done and don't base it off square feet or anything like that and you'll have a comfortable safe and efficient home.